RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

ATV riders are disrespectful



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Published: June 19, 2009

As a hiker and environmentally conscious Vermonter, I cannot imagine ATV riders on the hiking trials. I have seen the total damage done to the Berlin Mountain Trail in Williamstown, Mass. The once pristine trail is now a disaster due to the mud holes and water in the middle of the trail. I tried to hike it recently and could not get past the damaged areas. This is caused by the ATVs spinning the wheels causing huge holes which fill up with water.

Then the riders speed through the water spaying the water all over the place and yelling "Yahoooooo," while having their fun and getting their kicks. They end up covered in mud, which they like. In other words, they intentionally do this. They feel that the hikers can get the hell out of their way and fend for themselves. They don't even make eye contact with you as they speed by. They resent your presence and know you'll bug off and hike someplace else. Beer cans and cig butts litter the trails they've been on. Meanwhile, I have hiked most the trails in Vermont and in the White Mountains and have never seen any litter. The hikers I meet are friendly and always willing to help any hiker in trouble. "Carry out what you carry in" is the motto that all hikers obey.

Please, let's keep the Green Mountain State green and not allow it to become the Brown Mud Hole State.

TOM KING

Pownal








READER COMMENTS


John, how nice you would write a reasoned response. That's so rare here.

I respect what you've postulated and would have no problem with the quiet use of ATV's and the responsible reparations to the environment. I've never thought everyone who drives an ATV is a jerk, or irresponsible, but when they refuse to admit that others are and try to guilt trip those of us who dislike the abuses, it's frustrating. So, yes, if they quiet them down significantly and slow them down significantly I don't have any problem with them being in the forest.

I also never said all hikers were good citizens on the trails, or that there haven't been abuses by them. However, for others to claim that hikers don't participate in the work that is done to maintain the trails is not true either. They do work on the trails and people most certainly do use shovels and other equipment to do so.

Some of those posting here just say stupid things that have no basis in reality and spend most of their time attacking other posters personally rather than dealing with the subject.
-- Posted by Lilly on Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:39 am EST

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I have been pretty amused over some of the things placed here. I will give some facts that are VERY easily located online. The first ATV was released in 1970 by Honda, it was the model US90. SO - ATV's have been around for AT LEAST 38 years. As far as safety it is easily learned that most fatalities are directly associated with improper and irresponsible use. It is true that more children and women are injured on ATVs based on percentages of riders, these statistics have also been linked to a lower rate of helmet usage among fatalities involving women and children. This information is easily found with a 2 minute search at google, it also comes from sites that in no way benefit from hikers or ATV riders so I would have to think the numbers are reliable.

As far as who has the right to be on state land... it seems unfair for one group of individuals to tell another group they can't be there. I do not own an ATV and I do enjoy the outdoors. I also realize that ATV users pay to register the machines they own, as far as I know they must also be insured. I know several hikers and I have not heard any of them speaking about sending in their "hiking fee" payment. I know, now someone will say that they either live here so they are entitled to hike on state land, or they are paying to vacation here and THEY are entitled to hike because they brought money to VT.

What is the state doing with the fees that all of these ATV riders pay to register there ATV's? It seems to me that the ATV riders have been getting the short end of the stick here. Once again I don't own an ATV but it seems that many people of you here are closed minded tree huggers that aren't even willing to let the many responsible riders on the trails. The fees that are paid for riding on the trails could also go toward law enforcement riding the network of trails and ticketing offenders. Any funds raised from ticketing could be used for trail repairs.

Just a few thoughts.
-- Posted by Arthur Howard on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 9:23 pm EST

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Lilly when I want peace and quiet in the woods I shut my atv off and walk a bit. sometimes overlooking some of the best views possible in this state. I also hike too. but due to my jobs, and kids I dont have all of the time I would like to hike to get to these points. thats where the atv comes into my recriational activities. I have done my part and picked up a lot of trash. some trash was hikers and some atv,ers the like. I have also repaired trails, cleared trees, performed rescues / recoveries and fought forest fires with atv's. And yes I have seen the damage atv's can do. and I agree with all of the conservation folks. but where there are unregulated / enforces trails right now being torn up by unrespectful atv'ers there now could be an atv club assiociated with that area who will maintain the trails and enforce safe and resposible atv pratices. go check out the vasa web site and take a look at all of the clubs pic's and info. they do charity events, trail clean up and repair days, they also help out with green up day. and there are also mufflers out there that cut the noise down about half of what a factory exhuast noise output is. they expesive $200.00 but I would be more then willing to install it on my atv if it was a requirement / law to have a vasa / state plate or belong to an atv club. thats one of the middle ground items I would be more then willing to spend extra money on to see eye to eye with all of you folks. another could be tree friendly winch kits that dont damage the trees, and a requirment that all atv's are utility atv's. none of the stupid loud fast ones that really tear up the trails. maybe even some of the fees for clubs and vasa could go to a conservation fund. or even an animal habit fund. like hunters do. atv'ers are not all crazy speed loving nuts. a majority of us are very resposible people who just like this type of recriation. we are your neighbors, your friends, family, and republican, independant, and democrat. its just our thing to do. just like some folks jog, or go fishing. yes I have stated some smart a#$ comments but that was to get the debate going in full swing. but we are all the same. and from all walks of life. so how about finding some common ground we can all agree with.
-- Posted by John Smith on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 6:19 pm EST

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Am I the only one that see's the same type of damage on all trails?

It doesn't matter how much dirt you churn up. If a path is worn to the dirt. Then water can easily wash out a trail. Soil erosion has already occurred or is occuring. It happens to ANY TRAIL that is worn. ANY TRAIL. Do you understand? Even your precious hiking trail.

It's silly to use information against one group. When both groups cause the same damage. Stop being hypocrites. Your hiking trails, in some places more than others, has killed delicate plants and has caused soil erosion.

So you want to outlaw your hiking trails, too? Is that what you are trying to do?

Many members of ATV clubs carry chainsaws, shovels, and other tools to fix trails and replace eroded soil. Do hiker's normally do the same thing? Not the ones here complaining...

Because Shoveling could scare off wildlife. They wouldn't want to do that. It's a complaint against ATV's. They wouldn't want to disturb their "Peace and Quiet" with shoveling. They wouldn't want to use a chainsaw either, for the same reason. Or they are just being hypocrites again.. lol...

So what's worse? People that know they do some damage. And bring tools to fix damage. Or hypocrites that think only others cause damage and they are just "perfect" for the environment?






Yes, None None, if you look up "ATV's Damage".... You get websites on ATV's and websites about Damage. And a few websites that actually have information about both ATV's and Damage. You may even get a few reports where hiker's damaged someone's ATV... lol..It's possible.... I guess I'm confused to what you were trying to prove. For anyone that has actually used a search engine and has had 1,000's of results that had nothing to do with what they were looking for. We all understand your Search engine analysis, the big numbers, mean nothing. Not sure what you were trying to prove. Or did you assume everyone is naive, ignorant, and unaware of how search engines work?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 3:44 pm EST

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J.S. I have heard both sides and like someone else said, it won't be just the responsible ones it will be the all of them, including the ones who are the emotional age of 12 year old boys. Those that who think speed and noise and dirt are exciting and fun in and of themselves. They are the likely the ones who will be rampaging through the woods, destroying the property with no care for the wood or the creatures that live there. That being said. I got no response from my remark about noise and speed except to say that they come with mufflers, uh huh, and that I drive a rascal.

So, since NN can't get the facts straight. I don't drive rascal, I don't have expensive hiking boots that I throw away when they get dirty-in fact my boots are nearly 20 years old and my statement didn't say handicapped people should be in the woods, I said the tired argument that keeping ATV people out punishes the handicapped. There's this whole guilt thing that those against ATV's are suppose to feel for the handicapped not having access. Which is false because handicapped people do have access to government trails.

As far as mufflers go, yes motorcycles have mufflers too, I used to have one, a Honda, it hummed, however other bikes roared, and with much exaggeration by the riders. That hasn't changed much either. Same with ATV riders, why have a quiet ride when you can have a loud, noisy ride that scares away any creature within 2 miles of it? My original question was if you love the woods so much, what part do you love? The peaceful, quiet, reflective place where you might encounter any number of varied wildlife and hear the birds - see the beauty of a mountain vista or lovely valley? Or is it just the roaring around flinging dirt and mud and yahooing with that sense of total freedom from any rules or regulations? My guess, it's the latter. But of course no one has addressed that yet.
-- Posted by Lilly on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 3:16 pm EST

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John

Old Stage roads are still very visible, go to Bethel and across from the Town Office and see where one goes up to Intial Rock. In many places the Highways were built on top of the stage roads, why? DUH! because they were the BEST routes. Rt 100 along Timber Lake and Echo Lake was all Stage road and the cut off that goes over the mountain and thru Salt Ash into North Shrewsbury is the Old Stage Road. Take a look along Route 4, from Woodstock to WRJ and see the remains of the Old Pea Vine Railroad.
What you neglect to realize is Stage Coaches and Wagons were PULLED and it was impossible for them to have spinning tires, and even if the wheels did spin they wouldn't have done much, they didn't have ALL TERRAIN, DIRT GRABBERS etc, yet they did wear paths that can still be seen today. You can go to places in Europe and see where the Chariots actually wore into rock and the Chariot roads are still in use to day.

Ah! None None

I see when you can't say anything intelligent, you retort to calling me names and trying to degrade me. Did you go to th elinks I posted or did you google, yourself and view how the State Agencies in other states are getting ready to restrict them? Did you read how New Zealand restricted them to farms only 20 years ago? Do you view the photos that were at 1000s of the sites to literally show youthe damage created? I thought not, you show your arrogance and ignorance with every post. You almos tthink I am the topic, the way you aim your posts at me, that is a sign of real weakness and lack of education when you can't address the Topic and can only bash the poster, you act more like Notta every day. ROFLMAO You are a ticket, an uneducated, ignorant ticket who feels that education is a waste you rather keep reacting to your knee jerk reactions and vivd imagination. ROFLMAO keep up the good work.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 7:09 am EST

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Well None None,
I guess its a good thing there are not anymore wagons on trails anymore. man the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries were a real ***** to our woods. but it looks like we will have to still get rid of the horses that ride the trails because they do all of the same stuff that you mentioned atv's can do.

"By driving ( rideing )in wetlands and salt marshes, compacting soil and sand, churning up streambeds that will take decades to recover (if ever), "

LOL. I think its funny that you cant really notice anymore signs of these old stagecoach roads anymore from the 18th and 19th centuries. unless you really, really. know what you are looking for or the roads were recently used as logging roads. these wagon roads had ruts 3 feet deep and they filled in just fine. Iv seen logging roads on state lands where the skidder ruts were about just as deep. and wider. so I dont think a few ( connector trails in specific areas ) are going to fubar the state forests. its not like atv'ers plan on riding up the long trail, or up to the top of white rocks. come on folks stop blowing this way out of proportion.
-- Posted by John Smith on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 1:02 am EST

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Lilly,
How about we generalize your activities, and give you one place to go and look at a tree or listen to a bird, and walk in the dirt with your stylish hiking shoes that you'll throw away when you get home because they are too dirty to get clean. How would that be? And why are handicaped people in the woods to start with? The woods are dangerous ever for seasoned hikers, riders and hunters.
Oh yea ATV's do have mufflers. Factory installed which meet all laws and regulations. As far as the speed, I wouldn't want to get passed by your rascal scooter on a trail. LMAO.

Not from the Idiot none none
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 12:27 am EST

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***************, What the hell is the problen here? The snowmobilers has a trail system, the hikers have a trail system why not the ATV'rs, Whats the big friggin deal?
Pollution? Vt does not compare to a big city for pollution
Tearing up dirt? Are you kidding me?
Scaring wildlife? NO they run when they hear an ATV comming
Tree hugging A-hol's with nothing better to ***** about?
Mind your own business, I'm NOT on your land

Vermont needs anything it can get its hands on to bring money into the state ( to waste away on liberal useless programs) so create an ATV trail system and charge fees or dues to maintain it to draw flatlanders up to spend their money here. I dont understand how a state full or right-wing liberals is so uptight. Get over yourselves!
If there was any sort of industry in VT there would be more people and more trees coming down to make way for their homes, but there is not.
Vt has syrup, skiing and logging, oh yea and a few good beer makers, thats it. I got the hell out as soon as I could. And dont plan on moving back, unless I become wealthy enough to afford the OVERPRICED cost of living up there to get away from it all and retire in peace on the side of my own mountain, riding my ATV all day long.
I am just too annoyed to keep writing, cause I know NN will have some dumba$$ed replies to anger me more. Id rather see ATV's than gangs or drugs in the state I used to call home, both of which are rampant in the state and nothing seems to be getting done about that either.

Flea
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 12:13 am EST

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I googled ATV Destruction and got 870,000 results
I googled ATV Damage and got 2,450,000 more sites

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1594/is_3_11/ai_62298549/

"A report by the White House Council on Environmental Quality titled Off Road Vehicles on Public Lands says ORVs (including ATVs) have damaged every kind of ecosystem found in the United States."

"The damage done by ATV use in the backcountry goes beyond an explosion of user created trails that is killing vegetation and causing soil erosion, says Gayle Joslin, a biologist with the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks."

http://www.greenspiration.org/environ/articles/ATVosaur.htm

"Twenty years ago, New Zealand banned the use of off road vehicles everywhere but on farms, treating them like small tractors (their original purpose)."

"By driving in wetlands and salt marshes, compacting soil and sand, churning up streambeds that will take decades to recover (if ever), drivers may be having a hoot, but the true costs of such reckless behaviour are immeasurable."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnZkyC06LDI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elFLzFWkShk

http://www.publiclandsnl.org/issues/atv/destruction.php
Check the photos at the above link to see the so called NO DESTRUCTION of ATVs.

http://www.mymcadoohome.com/documents/ATVDamagePhoneModem.pdf
more photos here, be sure to look at them all.

http://ebs.gmnews.com/news/2007/0125/Front_page/001.html
"When one trail gets flooded because of erosion, the riders simply create another one through the woods."

"They do a lot of damage, and they destroy everything," resident Mike Smith said. "They're nasty and arrogant. They come from all over."


http://www.wildwilderness.org/content/view/852/61/

http://northstar.sierraclub.org/campaigns/forests/atvs/index.html
"The powerful spinning wheels of ATVs, dirt bikes and mudder trucks are inherently destructive to the delicate plants, thin soils and steep slopes of the our state's prairies and forests. Erosion multiplies their damage and pollutes our valued trout steams, wetlands and beautiful lakes. When they proliferate, rare wildlife habitats are degraded and residents and visitors lose cherished peace and quiet.".
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 4:43 pm EST

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Mav

I realize you are probably a brain dead liberal, but when I quote I put in Quotation marks, that really is what quotation marks are for. So unless it was in quotation marks, it wasn't a quote.
Second, when I use YOU a lot of times, it is a collective YOU meaning all you ATVers.

Now put your soap box away and grow up.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 6:11 am EST

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Well ladies and gents, I had a great ATV ride with my wife up at birds eye today. only found one gum wrapper on the trials today. I belive it was trident. lol oh yeh and I picked it up. not bad for 43 miles logged. trails were in spectacular shape and they were working with an excavator putting in water bars and fixing some areas on the trails. lookin good clubs. lookin good.
-- Posted by John Smith on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 8:17 pm EST

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Well, N.N. i really hate to think you are that deluded to believe you quoted me directly.
May I refer you to my post of Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 10:53 pm, halfway down my statement.
- 2 years of non-use and the forest starts taking over the trails again... how long to get rid of your litter?.... oh yeah... you still haven't admitted that hikers pollute just as much as anybody else...-

Sigh.... Your "quote....." on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 7:50 pm...
-LOL you even go so far as to state TWO YEARS it all grow back, now you are enviromental experts as well. Such dorks.-

"Mav

They were DIRECT quotes, I changed no wording at all.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 8:12 am EST "

.... remember what I was saying about the more you wrote destroying your credibility?... yah, smartguy... keep digging....


Where was the direct quote? when i said "your" granola wrappers when I was clearly referring to hikers in general? is that the only direct quote you were referring to? Can you even have an intelligent conversation without twisting "quotes" or point-blank lying?

-no wonder Vermont is going to hell in a bucket....
wish I could say I was enjoying the ride.... but I still cant ride a(n) (borrowed) ATV on old logging roads where hikers never seem to go....

N.N. please feel free to ignore facts next time you want to weigh in on an issue....
oh, wait.... NM... LOL
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 8:04 pm EST

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IF ALL VERMONTERS OWN OUR STATE FORESTS LET US ALL VOTE ON THE ATV ISSUE!!
-- Posted by Herdofcat None on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 3:53 pm EST

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CF, you hit the nail on the head right and true.

Additionally, Lilly's response is typical of an emotionally regressive 'us vs. them' mentality wherein she assumes all those partaking in the activity she uses to designate the imaginary 'them' faction have entirely unrelated attributes (her assumption of ATV rider having the emotional equivalence of a 12 yr old being a prime example). Someone with this mind state cannot be reasoned with outside of their box, as it were, as they feel they are empirically correct and all divergent opinions are wrong. The notion of public land in the interest of the public whole is foreign to her.
-- Posted by Scott Frank on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 12:54 pm EST

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Maybe Lilly should do as she requests? Maybe she should listen to her own advice?

If you want to do all of those things with YOUR LAND. Then BUY YOUR LAND.

Public land = Public land. Should be open for everyone. It really is just that simple.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 10:24 am EST

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Lilly, actually some of us have grown up.

Some of us like both. Some of us enjoy everything you mention. But we also like to have "Fun".

What's wrong with that?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 10:20 am EST

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You make no sense... None None. You act as if Hikers make no trace on the land. You think it is all Natural!

How do you think hiking trails get maintained?... You think it just naturally stays clear?

Hiking trails can be just as muddy and worn as some seasoned ATV trails. And if there was a lot of rain. A hiking trail may get washed out just like an ATV trail.

I guess I don't understand the problem. Hiking trails have and will be, if used often, worn to the dirt. ATV trails have and will be, if used often, worn to the dirt.

So you are saying... It would be bad if someone relocated the dirt. And then replaced the dirt? Really?

Only difference is....

When a hiking trail is washed out. They can maneuver around it easily. Much easier than an ATV. An ATV or Club would have to either "FIX" the trail right away. Or if it is extremely wet. They will cut a small intersecting trail until the main trail has dried and is able to be maintained.

That's it, that's the only difference. I've hiked many "hiking trails" and I have enjoyed many "maintained ATV trails". Many hiking trails are destroyed. They are not clear, easily walked trails as they once were. Because weather and nature can and has worked against you.

With the weather we have had lately. I'm sure many ATV trails look bad. What can ya say. VT truly is turning into a swampland/rainforest.

I think there should be clearly marked hiking and ATV trails throughout the state, on state land. They do not need to share many trails. There is more than enough land for everyone to enjoy. Go enjoy life! Stop whining and complaining. We are in the 21st century. If you hear machines. It's natural. Get over it.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 10:15 am EST

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if you are going to come on these posts and pass judgement and act like everyones moral monitor, then by all means have the stones to post your real name. it would be nice for your neighbors and everyone else to know what a judgemental creep you really are. or perhaps you should stay covert if you really dont believe the junk you spout. none none , lily, take notice.
-- Posted by paul mangan on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 8:25 am EST

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Mav

They were DIRECT quotes, I changed no wording at all.


John

In another thread, Bruce Meyer made an excellent point, why don't Private Land owners open their land for a FEE to the ATVs.

I find it odd that the Rutland Fair Association shut down the fair grounds to Demo Derbies for so long , due to the fact of the destruction. ATVs will cause much more destruction to the delicate forest than demo derbies would do to a hard packed area.

Why don't you all just chip in and BUY some land to drive on, a few hundred acres should keep you happy.

You are wrong, I have seen what Organized Clubs have and I don't have a complaint, so much against organized clubs, the problem is when you open the trails, you open them to EVERYONE and it is the EVERYONE I am against. From the attitudes and smirk remarks of a few posters here, I have no question that there will intentional destruction. This thread, if anything has proved beyond doubt the immaturity of many ATV riders and they are not the worst.

To compare ATVs riding on trails to litter by Hikers is as insane of a point as one can make. I would rather see a little littler than the soil torn from the ledges and the ground holding plants torn and spun into oblivion.

ATVs have no place in or on our National Forest or our State Trails. You all want to ride your machines, buy the land and destroy it until your Hearts content. If they don't destroy the land, then I think Mav, and Mountain Boy and a few others can be the first to donate. My License Fees for Hunting and Fishing go into the preservation of the same and not to allowing bird brains on ATVs to tear up the country side in the name of Fun. I pay a pretty sizable fair share of taxes and I think I am entitled to my opinion and that would be NO WAY.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 8:12 am EST

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I find it absolutely amazing that there are people so completely closed-minded as to make up their "facts" and then name call and say ATVers are immature children.

NN, if you want to quote anyone, then please do not change key words and pass it off:

" LOL you even go so far as to state TWO YEARS it all grow back,"
is entirely different than
"2 years of non-use and the forest STARTS taking over the trails again"

Never said they were YOUR granola wrappers, or called you a tree hugger. You seem to have the job of passing judgement, creating "facts" out of thin air and making assumptions about people well under control.
Keep it up tho, the more crap like that, the more the credibility of your argument dissipates.

Oh, and Lilly...
Infantile remarks like that dont help the hikers case either. Given how much trash hikers have left, perhaps they should be banned from state land with the ATVs that you seem to despise? Build your own trails and hike on your own land.

OR, everybody can act like the adults that they claim to be and find a realistic compromise that all parties can live with.
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 7:20 pm EST

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Lilly I dont really agree with you stating that WE ATV riders have the emotional age of 12. LOL acually if I was 12 I would be pretty upset. I know a lot of 12 year olds that are very resposible young adults. so I guess you also discriminate againts 12 year olds going out on state lands too. WOW. Lilly. let me tell you whats is going to probably happen if there isnt any realistic middle ground found here. there will be the issue of some groups felling disenfrachised. and the ATV clubs will then get together and sue the state for the right to have their connector trails. and you know what. I wouldnt blame them a bit. so. Lilly and other folks that are dead set againts ATV. I do see your point. but, all of you need to understand that all vermonters have a right to this land, right. and ATV folks will have their day in court if it goes that far, right. and other states have succesful ATV trails so it will agree to let these ATV trails in. so instead of being againts the issue. understand both sides and be a part of the planning and implementation. help come up with laws and guidelines for these trails. its not a matter of if these trails will be created but more like when. so lets all be part of the solution and not have to see our state go to court over who has more rights to state lands. and all the expensive nonsence that goes along with it. our state is already overbudget.
-- Posted by John Smith on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 6:03 pm EST

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If you want ATV trails, build and maintain your own on your private property. How's that? Or, let's see, how about you agree to have all ATV's have governor's that keep the speed down to 2 mph and have really great mufflers installed that kill the sound. If you agree to that, then maybe the rest of us could see letting you drive around on public lands. Why do I think, and most of us who oppose ATV's on protected lands, think that this would not be of interest to all you responsible ATV folks? Probably because we all know that you aren't concerned about some disabled person being able to get around in the woods, you really just want to rip roar around, throwing up as much mud, dirt and water as loudly as possible. Why? because your average emotional age is somewhere around 12 that's why.

It's adults who like the peace and quiet of the forest, who enjoy the scenic beauty to be found there, who like to watch birds and other wildlife without frightening them away.

If you did like those sorts of things, you'd already have mufflers, and drive slowly to enjoy the beauty and the opportunity to see wildlife living undisturbed.
-- Posted by Lilly on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 3:59 pm EST

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I am a hiker. I love quiet, peaceful hiking. When I want to experience this, I go where only hikers are allowed. I am not an ATV rider. I have never ridden an ATV for more than simple transport of materials from one end of a field to another. I have hiked on trails and in areas wherein both hikers and ATV riders go.

Sure, I've seen a couple disrespectful ATV riders. By contrast, however, I've seen a lot more disrespectful hikers and partiers on foot. I've seen more trash left by hikers than ATV riders.

Opening some areas for ATV riders to go is perfectly fine. This state does not belong exclusively to hikers. Vermonters enjoy a wide variety of outdoor activities. This is not a lefty, righty, republican nor dem issue. This is a freedom for Vermonters to enjoy their lands issue. Respectfulness is not limited by mode of transport.
-- Posted by Scott Frank on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 3:56 pm EST

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No one imposing on your freedom none none, i dought any of these trails go through your land. We just want the freedom to ride if we want on legal trails. If you took a bullet to the knee in the military and could not get around well would you not want to be able to get outside into the woods some how? Many people have health issues and can not walk or hike to the tops of mtns but could take a atv and be able to enjoy the scenery and the thrill of it, but you being selfess would rather they have to stay home and pine away, i don't by any of your arguments, selfess one!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 7:56 am EST

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Then why are you so bent on restricting a groups right to have a chance to prove themselves None None? I consider it disenfranchising a certain group from trying to have their ability to do their recriational past time. I really dont care if ATVs are allowed on state lands or not. but its the point of the matter that gets me. a certian group of folks who havent seen an ATV clubs trail system and how they maintain it. a certain group who implies that all ATV riders are destructive. there needs to be some middle ground where both parties can see eye to eye here. and your statement of

" I also know that paying taxes doesn't give anyone any more rights than another. Something you haven't learned yet,"

I know that lesson already. but common sence tells me that if we are all residence of this state then we all have the same right to these lands. right? so what gives. Im just saying let this certain group prove themselves. have these trails maintained and enforced by VASA and by local clubs. the ATV laws would have to be beefed up so that the system would have teeth to punish thoughs that destroy the trails and litter. other states, and Canada have sucsessful trails. why not Vermont. I understand the hikers and enviormentalists point of view. and yes I did pick on them a bit. ( but that was to get a rise out of them, and get a good debate going ) but I think that there could be some common ground here. with good management and monitoring of these connector trails I believe it could work. and None None thanks for your service in the military.
-- Posted by John Smith on Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 1:02 am EST

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MAV & John

Give it a rest, boys.

Granola wrappers? me? I can't stand the crap. You are automatically trying to label me as a tree hugger or a joker from Killington, you are failing very badly at trying to i.d. me.

I have hunted for well over 40 years. I have hiked and I hate garbage left by anyone. I have served two tours, the last with TF Sabre, so please don't push your guard garbage on me, save that for your Arcade Zombies. Other than Camp Johnson and EAFR, every Guard Unit in the state is not much more than a building and a parking lot. You may find yourself back at Drum with your Stryker, let me know when you get one, I doubt it will be any time soon and you will only be running on the roads at MAYBE EAFR or Drum or it will be in the inventory and sit.

There is an area near Castleton where we drove APCs and after the second time, the guy didn't want us back. Tore up the land pretty bad and that was for a Mortar Unit, the old obsolete 4 deuce, before your days, I am sure.

Listen to you guys trying to convince everyone with your name calling and ignorance why ATVs should be allowed. LOL you even go so far as to state TWO YEARS it all grow back, now you are enviromental experts as well. Such dorks.

Just to let you know, I am not a tree hugger, yet I respect wildlife and believe in Fair Chase and I also know that paying taxes doesn't give anyone any more rights than another. Something you haven't learned yet, You have Freedom until it imposes onto someone elses, then you will find restrictions on your freedom.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 7:50 pm EST

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"Hey Simpleton, I have hiked thousands of miles over the years on most trails anywhere around here, i'm not FAT or LAZY and would walk, run circles around you! I like options, if i don't feel like biking or hiking i go to the atv(with friends) to take me FAR where the legs won't, it ain't rocket science! It's to bad that in this State it takes just a few cry babies like you to ruin it for everyone else oh SELFESS NONE NUTS! I will still ride regardless if it passes or not just like i've done for 30 yrs, try and find me, you won't and nobody has yet!Theres alot of places to go!So i could really give 2 ***** what you think!

-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 10:02 pm EST "


WoW! My feet are way of the floor, I better duck as well with all the SH&& that is being flung. ROFLMAO
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 7:26 pm EST

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i've been riding an atv since 2002 and i can count on one hand that's missing 3 fingers of how many "hikers" i've come across. what is there 1% of vermont actually "hikes"? compare that to 20-30% that ride atv's. you hikers don't have the guts to hike anywhere other than a marked trail.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 6:28 am EST

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Hey NN another thing really quick. this comment that you made

" I have a great idea, Mav, why don't you drive your ATV on your own land? What ? you don't own any land? Ah! I see so you went out and bought an ATV with the sole intent of riding it on other people's land or to come up with a song and dance to see if you can persaude the state in allowing you to ride on theirs.

Well NN its not " THEIR LAND ITS OUR LAND " we the people, the tax payers own this land. remember that. and the ATV clubs have a right to that land. not just you tree hugging hippie moonbats. ok. so let them prove or ruin it for themselves.
-- Posted by John Smith on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 5:52 am EST

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Hey NN your right about Vt not having tanks anymore. but we are going to be getting stryker's. oh what fun we could have. thats the 8 wheeled green thingys that carry infantry. and the national guard dose still have tracked APCs. sorry to burst your little bubble.
-- Posted by John Smith on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 5:44 am EST

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CF I agree with you. nature dose what it wants to. and water is a very powerful force to deal with. the trails that I have been a guest on in Castleton have been maintained very well. where water is an issue the ATV club installed waterbars, and colverts. and in areas where there were streams or deep ditches thay installed ATV bridges. these folks are a model for what they would do on state land. like I said. the Birds eye ATV club and the west rutland atv club do a bang up job with the trails they maintain. and I really respect how they care for the environment around them. no litter on their trails. ( no joke ) I didnt see a single bit of trash anywhere. thats why its only fair that since ATV folks pay taxes for these lands also, that they should be given the chance to prove themselves. period. its their public land just as much as it is the hikers / enviormentalists. and this land should be shared.
and yes ATVs even with a resposible rider can wear trails. thats why the trails get maintained. just like highways have to be maintained. ATV riders dont like really rough trails. and they do a great job in filling in areas that need it. and also doing what they have to do to control water issues. and clearing fallen trees and other hazards. so to the ATV clubs and VASA folks out there keep up the great work. your trails are great.
-- Posted by John Smith on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 1:34 am EST

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Well John..

There will be a day, and a time, that the trail will look bad after much rain and ATV use. Just like how snowmobile trails look after use.

This will be the time this guy will be up there. He will take pics of the destruction and relay it to you.

Now... Yes, it was probably fixed a few days later.. Just like snowmobile trails are every few days. But it will make no difference. He will still think ATV'ers are evil and try to hold you to your word.

Any area's that have drainage problems will need extra attention. It's simple to understand that. Weeks after much rain will need extra time to fix any damage. Yes, we understand that.

In the end I'm confused... So hikers think one small dirt path is extremely better than 2 paths? Or sometimes one wide dirt path?

I do understand, especially in springs like this, where any ATV use can create hazards for future ATV use. Even trails get wiped out completely by rain. The same happens for many hiking trails. It's not an ATV only issue. Water finds the path of least resistance. Worn trails, by foot, or ATV, may end up being the path of least resistance. Which = washed out trail.

Nature is, by far, more destructive than ATV's are.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:34 am EST

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Hey None None, I agree with you to some degree in regards to ATVs being destructive on trails. but I have seen ATV clubs maintain and show respect for their trails like no Granola eating tree hugging hiker could ever dream of. lets face it. who will be able to maintain trails better. a back packing trail monkey or an ATV club with ATVs that can haul trailers full of tools and material to repair trails. I have seen what hikers and ATVs can do to the enviornment. but if you have a well managed ATV club in charge of these trails then they will be taken care of. its funny how these hikers work. they dont like ATVs but when they break and ankle arm or a leg they call the fire department to pull their sorry carcuses out of the woods with what. ohhh thats right an ATV! LOL. come on None None. have an open mind and let the ATV clubs prove themselves. if they dont manage the trails right and things get torn up. then I will side with you and agree that the trails should be shut down. But I know that will not be the case. I have traveled on these trails and I have to say. these ATV clubs do a bang up job in maintaning the trails they have.
-- Posted by John Smith on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 11:56 pm EST

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actually, i hike and mountain bike (which i cant do on hiking trails) and I am a landowner in VT. Unfortunately, I am not Rich enough to afford the taxes on more than my meager half acre. and to continue to be totally honest, I also don't own an ATV. I like to see equality and fair use.

BTW there are more Guard units in VT than the "ex-Armor"... and we all have off-road vehicles... known as the "Hummvee", the susv, LMTV...

Really? Litter and land destruction arnt even close? Are you frigging serious? How many years will it take for your granola wrappers that i have seen decompose?

2 years of non-use and the forest starts taking over the trails again... how long to get rid of your litter?.... oh yeah... you still haven't admitted that hikers pollute just as much as anybody else...

what did you have, a couple of drunk teenagers on your land with 4 wheelers, so now nobody can be responsible? I and anybody I know (ok, 1 or 2 exceptions) pack out what we bring in, Mtn biking, atving , etc... we do our parts and then some with trail maintenance and clean up... I see a couple of hikers once in a while on maintenance days, and yes, footprints in mud may not cause the same damage that a careless individual with a 4 wheeler can, but there are more than enough who do care... most don't go home to Mass. or NY... they live here...
Grow up. Nobody is asking for ATVs on the Long Trail. Just to open up a few areas for responsible adults to ride.
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 10:53 pm EST

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Yes, many ATV'ers like to get muddy. It's fun. But many others do not.

Umm... Just because you are a goody goody and doesn't like to get dirty. And doesn't like to ATV. Doesn't mean we ATV'ers are all bad people.

Cigarette butts, beer cans, and all trash are all from ATV'ers?

That's nonsense. Many hiking trails were directly associated with starting forest fires throughout America. It's not just the ATV'ers. Keep it real!

I don't understand anyone who can think like this man....

How can anyone have such onesided thoughts....

He actually feels hikers are all gooddoer's and all ATV'ers are baddoers? .. Is that even a rational thought?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 10:45 pm EST

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Hey Simpleton, I have hiked thousands of miles over the years on most trails anywhere around here, i'm not FAT or LAZY and would walk, run circles around you! I like options, if i don't feel like biking or hiking i go to the atv(with friends) to take me FAR where the legs won't, it ain't rocket science! It's to bad that in this State it takes just a few cry babies like you to ruin it for everyone else oh SELFESS NONE NUTS! I will still ride regardless if it passes or not just like i've done for 30 yrs, try and find me, you won't and nobody has yet!Theres alot of places to go!So i could really give 2 ***** what you think!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 10:02 pm EST

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"There is no reason why there cant be certian areas/trails for ATV use. We can fling facts/exaggerations back and forth, but can you tell me what gives you the holier-than-thou attitude that lets you decide that we cant share the STATE land?"

Yes! matter of factly I can. I am part of that state as well and I have an opposing view and Holier than Thou, probably, I am.

I have land destroyed by ATVs and whether it is my own land or land I share with others, ATVs destroy, it is really that simple. All you ATVers are doing is not debating logic and reasoning, you are like a bunch of little children trying to justify the cookie before dinner. You want and therefore, you deserve. LOl.

The trials are there and YES! next will be people asking why they can't take something else. Answer me a question, why are you so insistant taking ATVs on trails? Why don't you walk like everyone else? are you that lazy or that fat?

Litter and land destruction are not even close.

Vermont is no longer and Armor State it is an Infantry State, so good luck with that APC suggestion next drill. LOL

I have a great idea, Mav, why don't you drive your ATV on your own land? What ? you don't own any land? Ah! I see so you went out and bought an ATV with the sole intent of riding it on other people's land or to come up with a song and dance to see if you can persaude the state in allowing you to ride on theirs.

You are very much aware of the destruction that an ATV creates, you really can't be that dumb.
How would you know if thereis trash on the trails, I doubt you have ever walked one. I am willing to bet none of you have, been too busy spining dirt with your ATVs.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 9:24 pm EST

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Of course I dont believe that all ATVers will be considerate and obey the rules, any more than every hiker dosnt litter, or damage the land either. the point is more that it seems ok for the new ski areas, multi-million dollar mansions with acres of forest clearcut for their yards.... yet we cant seem to find a way for people to share the state land that is "OURS". the hiking trails and old logging roads/ATV trails dont need to interfere with each other.
As far as your claim that people will complain that they cant take their Jeep on the trails... that makes as much sense as allowing gay marriage will make sombody ask why they cant marry their dog.
There is no reason why there cant be certian areas/trails for ATV use. We can fling facts/exaggerations back and forth, but can you tell me what gives you the holier-than-thou attitude that lets you decide that we cant share the STATE land?

"allow the Military to go in the same areas with their APCs for training. "... got somthing against the Military?

Now that you mention it, I think that might make for some "Good Army Training!", maybe I'll bring that up next drill...

BTW, how much DO hikers pay for usage taxes/fees to the state?...

NN, since the evil ATVers are the ONLY ones that throw powerbar wrappers, Sterno cans or other trash on the side of the trails, and ATVers arent allowed on the Long Trail or other local trails, theres absolutely NO trash there, or just BARELY buried on the side of the trail, and NO signs of human impact on the environment... Right?
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 8:01 pm EST

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They will be riding on trails that are already there nn, you seem so worried about a trail in the woods like it's going to be the end of the world. I think we should be able ride on tar roads to in Vt. Most are trails and think of all the gas we would save if we could ride to work on atvs to work and play and cheaper to buy!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 7:59 pm EST

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Soil Erosion in many cases will take far more than a 1000 years to replace. Impact from ATVs can be minor or they can be major, depending on the type of land they are driven on.
Many SouthWestern states outlawed Dune Buggies in the desert, because the desert is very slow to recover and when plants are destroyed and thos eplants were all that held the land in place. Well, 1000 years would be a conservative figure.

Vermont has a lot of wildlife and the habitant of this wildlife has already shrunk. homes, developements, ski areas, interstates, etc have already upset the balance and now a few people who are so health conscience that they want to ride and ATV where they should be walking, want to go in and tear up what is left. They even claim that they have paid registration fees and therefore are entitled to ruin the land for future gernations. You are so narrow minded to the opposing arguments that you come back questioning the 1000 years. Impact can be very severe and to the point it may never be the same again, ever. You have the disillusion that the ATV people are all going to go slow, be cautious of the enviroment, be well behaved and show no disrepect for anyone or anything. Yet you believe that malarchy and you don't believe a 1000 years? Yup! I fully understand.

Once man is allowed into an area with force, it will never be the same again. Why stop with ATVs why not Jeep Wranglers and the such, they are al registered? Let's just not stop with a few people but let's allow everyone. That will be the next arguement., "If ATVs are allowed why can't I ride mmy Jeep?" whine whine.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 5:17 pm EST

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1000 years to repair a trail... LOL nobodys exxagerating on here are they? 400 hp 4 wheelers, thousands of ATVers doing doughnuts in the middle of the long trail...

Go out sometime and find an old logging road. more erosion, wheel ruts from skidders, and yet they seem to overgrow nicely in 30-40 years... not thousands...
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 5:53 am EST

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Wrong again NN...that is not the argument at all...I don't even own an atv any more...And I doubt most any one is going to tell me about chain saws and damage to the forest...Still not the point...Has there been any studies that show damage from an atv will really take 1000 years to repair?...Of course not...How could they...The gas engine is only 100 years old...My point is that every road, highway, path, house, or shopping mall. Was an infringement on nature. Accepted by some because it is an "improvement" on standards of living...Now what gives any tree hugger in the modern world the right to say atv's are unacceptable...Because they pollute?...So dont cars and the factories that make your hiking boots or any thing else in your home...Because they may change the landscape?...So dont roads,ski trails and golf courses...Who draws the line?...You?...And why?...Because you think you side with nature?...Than unless you live in a lean too wearing only a loin, cloth you are a hypocrite...To be truthful I could care less either way...Just because I dont understand it doesn't mean it makes no sense...And just because I don't like it doesn't mean it it's no good.. Live and let live...
-- Posted by Mikie None on Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 5:14 am EST

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Corrected copy

Mountain Boy

You are so right, you do ASSUME more than me.

Nature has been using fire to clean the forests since the dawn of time. Lightning will positively charge the particles so they fall to Earth and the Sun will cause the particles to decay away. So much for wood smoke. Thunderstorms and the Sun clear the air from any wood smoke pollution, otherwise we would be living in the dark from all of the Forest Fires.


To another NONE NONE

I know of no such ATVs in the early 60s. I know that Jorgenson's Honda in Clarendon sold the first ones in Rutland area in the late 70s. So if you have alink that shows ATVs in the US in the early 60s, please share it, or you are making stuff up. I was around in the 60s and Snowmobiles made their debut in about 1966 or 1967. Ok! So much for GP.
As far as driving Hummers and Big Trucks... No! I get 26 miles to a gallon in my vehicle and drive less than 100 miles per week with it. As far as the pollution part, well my Vehicle has a Catalytic convertor and your ATV has a ????
My vehicle drives on roads and I walk on trails. You want to drive on roads with YOUR cars and you want to take Terrain destroying ATVs on the trails. Move out to the Midwest where the ground is worthless to begin with and ride all you want. Or buy a pair of hiking boots or cross country skiis a or a pair of Snowshoes.



You are right I cut my trees with a Chain Saw. It runs for about 5 days out of the year. ONE chain Saw for Five days and not thousands of ATVs over the same period going over the same area. That would be a BIG difference. You are trying to justify the Land Use of ATVs by comparing ONE chain Saw against THOUSANDS of ATVs? what a real dumb argument.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 4:50 pm EST

Mikie None

Forest will take thousands of years to replace the damage done by ATVs.

California and Arizona shut the deserts down to Dune Buggies years ago. They were destroying Burial Sites, tearing up rare plants, speeding up the eroding process and offsetting the balance of Nature. ATVs will do the same in a forest that was made for the Impact of feet and not the impact of All Terrain Tires spinning. Wildlife get out of the way of people that are walking. I find it sickening to think some people call it a Sport to hunt with ATVs. Talk about lazy. Takes a real Sportsman who goes out one day a year to sight in a rifle when it is the person behind the rifle that needs sighting in. He has a 18X power scope, GPS, Cameras to capture the Deer in areas and then he goes out on an ATV to get his Deer and that is suppose to be a Sport? What a joke. Now you tell me that people need to have a privilege of riding their ATVs through a forest for the sake of what? Because they are too lazy to get off their FAT A&&es and walk. Some people just need to be told NO! and the ATVers need to be told NO!
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 5:11 pm EST

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Mountain Boy

You are so right, you do ASSUME more than me.

Nature has been using fire to clean the forests since the dawn of time. Lightning will positively charge the particles so they fall to Earth and the Sun will cause the particles to decay away. So much for wood smoke. Thunderstorms and the Sun clear the air from any wood smoke pollution, otherwise we would be living in the dark from all of the Forest Fires.


To another NONE NONE

I know of no such ATVs in the early 60s. I know that Jorgenson's Honda in Clarendon sold the first ones in Rutland area in the late 70s. So if you have alink that shows ATVs in the US in the early 60s, please share it, or you are making stuff up. I was around in the 60s and Snowmobiles made their debut in about 1966 or 1967. Ok! So much for GP.
As far as driving Hummers and Big Trucks... No! I get 26 miles to a gallon in my vehicle and drive less than 100 miles per week with it. As far as the pollution part, well my Vehicle has a Catalytic convertor and your ATV has a ????
My vehicle drives on roads and I walk on trails. You want to drive on roads with YOUR cars and you want to take Terrain destroying ATVs on the trails. Move out to the Midwest where the ground is worthless to begin with and ride all you want. Or buy a pair of hiking boots or cross country skiis a or a pair of Snowshoes.

Mikie None

You are right I cut my trees with a Chain Saw. It runs for about 5 days out of the year. ONE chain Saw for Five days and not thousands of ATVs over the same period going over the same area. That would be a BIG difference. You are trying to justify the Land USe of ATVs by comparing ONE chain Saw against THOUSANDS of ATVs? what a real dumb argument.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 4:50 pm EST

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uhh..no none none...that forest most likely has not been taking care of it self for that long at all...given the fact that the highest percentage of this land was farmland at the turn of the century...yes atv's do damage fragile soil...yes gasoline engines do release pollutants into the air..so does the car you drive...And as far as the wildlife infringement the hikers are doing the same thing only slower and quieter...Like a predator..And where should we draw the line with what is acceptable to the wildlife and forests..This was all their home...We justified taking it over...Now lets preserve it so we can sleep well at night. But god forbid we should compromise and let other people have their own recreation...
-- Posted by Mikie None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 4:05 pm EST

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Great job smart and wise none none, you are so on the money! Thanks for the help!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 3:22 pm EST

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funny how the other none none complains about cleaner burning 4 stroke ATVs but like he said himself he is out there clear cutting his land with a 2 stroke chainsaw that burns oil and gas, plus you have to bring a 4 wheel drive truck out there to haul the wood back, but oh no that doesnt pollute, your truck probably has an oil leak too so your dumping oil onto your land as well where deer and other animals have to eat from but i guess you are better then us because you can talk like a little 13 year old girl like whatever like ROFLMAO give me a break guy, you pollute more cutting down a forest that has been there taking care of itself longer then you're entire family tree has been around. But of course you know better then mother nature.

and if you think burning wood that billows out thick black smoke isn't as polluting, you are only fooling yourself.

And what do you expect when you go out screaming and yelling at someone on an ATV ? You think they are going to stop and be friendly while you are being a jackass?
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 11:47 am EST

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rutvegas you are smoking crack if you think todays atvs get 400hp not even most big V8s push that much without modifications.... take one of those zeros off.


and to the other none none, ya dood they made 4 wheelers in the 1960s do a little research, they even had snowmobiles in the 60s.

All i see is whiney little babies that don't know anything and cant come up with a valid point as to why atvs shouldn't be allowed on the trails and yet i bet 99% of the babies crying about it drive big hummers and trucks and pollute WAY more then anyone on an atv ever will.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 11:36 am EST

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That's better than i thought, thanks ca. I like to make people laugh so all's well!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 8:00 am EST

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Mountain boy, ROFLMAO means "Rolling on the floor laughing my a$$ off"
I think you are probably the only one who doesn't have a clue there!
-- Posted by Comfy Anon on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 7:23 am EST

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None, Look up wood smoke hazards,it might surprise you!You assume as much as me none, i'm just a little better at it then you and you don't like it! And no one has a clue what ROFLMAO means either, i'm sure it's real brilliant!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 6:36 am EST

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Mountain Boy

I wasn't referring to your physical Age. ROFLMAO Your physical age is still young.

Wood smoke is not harmful as compared to ATV exhaust.

I also do not live in area where I can look down into Rutland. You do a lot of ASSUMING and then you react to your assumptions as if they were facts. You are a ticket, Mountain Boy, very immature.

Others of you feel that you may disregard the destruction of an ATV and the other negatives, because you bought them and registered them. Like wow! If I registered my Bulldozer, can I take that onto the Trails? What logic, some of you have.

The Midwest is not Vermont, move to the midwest and ride your Hearts out.

I cut my own firewood and do not buy it and I cut it on my OWN Land. Actually felling a tree does not cause harm but adds life to the forest. It allows sunlight to hit the bottom of the otherwise barren forest floor (mature forest) and allows ground growth to grow, thus feeding wildlife. That is the whole purpose behind the Fish & Game supported clear cutting areas. WOW! and I thought I GOTTA LIFE might have had more than one brain cell. ROFLMAO I am nbeing sarcastic too. Loggers usually log on their own land or land they are paid to harvest. Once they are done, the the area gets reclaimed by nature. If these trails are open to hundreds and thousands of ATVs, when do they get done annd when does Nature reclaim the destruction done by them? Oh! There will be NO destruction you say, because all the riders are upstanding, decent folks who the greatest respect for other people's property? B.S. They for the most part have only respect for themselves.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 10:59 am EST

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Boy I'd like to see a 400hp fourwheeler... Must be a concept vehicle yet to make it to production. Banning ATV's is completely ludicrous... when was the last time hikers paid for a registration or club and state fees like snowmobilers do? Its our money that the state of Vermont collects and maintains some of these trails with. Allowing ATV's the use the the Vermont trail system would benefit the state tremendously, bringing in much revenue... much more than a hiker would.
-- Posted by Chad Pecor on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 8:43 am EST

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400 hp, sign me up, none none won't even see me because i'll be going so fast! Maybe they should add wings, then we could fly to, how cool would that be!!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 6:19 am EST

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BTW... where can I buy one of those 400 hp ATV s with 29" wheels? Sounds like a blast, but I don't think I'm gonna hit 100 mph on any trails I know of around here...
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 5:53 am EST

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Hey, Rutvegas... heres the real HP ratings for the most popular ATVS...
NTW I have a motorcycle in the 600 cc range thats built for racing... still dosnt come close to 400 HP... LOL
Can-Am Outlander 800__61.7 hp
Can-Am Outlander 650__55.4 hp
Kawasaki BF750 Carb___50.1 hp
Sportsman 800_________50.1 hp
Kawasaki BF750 EFI____49.8 hp
Suzuki KQ700__________48.5 hp
Yamaha Grizzly 700____45.6 hp
Sportsman 700_________44.3 hp
AC 700________________41.4 hp
Kawasaki BF650________41.4hp
Yamaha Grizzly 660____40.9 hp
Can Am Outlander 500__40.4 hp
AC 650 H1_____________39.3 hp
Honda Rincon 680______38.5 hp
Suzuki KQ450__________36.7 hp
Sportsman 500 EFI_____36.0hp
Sportsman 500 HO______34.5hp
Honda Rubicon_________33.9hp
Arctic Cat 500________32.0hp
Sportsman 450_________29.7hp
Can-Am Outlander 400__28.9hp
Honda Foreman 4x4_____26.9hp
Honda Rancher 420_____26.1hp
Yamaha Grizzly 450____26.0 hp
Yamaha Grizzly 400____26.0 hp
Yamaha Big Bear 400___22.9 hp


Yes, there are disrespectful punks that will tear trails up, but it seems it only takes 1 or 2 morons to ruin it for everybody else. I dont think anybody is demanding EVERY trail be opened up for ATVs, but a few would be nice.
-- Posted by Mav Erick on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 5:48 am EST

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None None,I believe that National forest fines for riding in the "National" forest must change state to state .ATV riding is PROMOTED in the areas of the midwest and west in "National" forests!
MONEY is brought in to these states thru registration and other fees for the "right" to use an ATV there whether it be for hunting or just going for a ride.
Now open your "NIMBY"(not in my back yard) mind and realize that the beautiful state that you live in needs dollars to support all the beautiful trails that you hike on.
Also give some thought as to where the wood comes from that you burn.If for one second when felling the tree that you burn doesnt do damage to the environment when you cut it down think again.
Oops that right you BUY your wood so you wouldnt know what kind of damage is done by the skidder that hauls it of the woods or the logtruck does to the "Carbonbased" asphalt roads they drive over to get to your "green"house that is perfectly balanced with nature.
Yes,Im being sarcastic.
Open your mind a little and let others enjoy the world too without thinking your way is the only way.
It all goes back to the almighty dollar and ATV riders would bring lots of dollars in to the state coffers if promoted properly.And everyone here knows we need money here in this state in the worst way .
-- Posted by I gotta life on Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 4:45 am EST

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I worked at an atv dealership for many years, and I can tell you that these 4-wheels today, ain't your daddy's three wheeler. Many of these four wheelers today are 600-700cc v-twins sporting 300-400hp and capable of going 100mph. You throw in the current trend of putting 29" super swampers on them and you can't tell me there isn't going to be trail damage. You want to ride trails join VASA. Work on expanding the legal trail system....BUT PLEASE STAY OUT OF THE STATE FORESTS!
-- Posted by rutvegas on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 9:44 pm EST

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Couple more things none, Majority also in Vt means nothing,your tune changes day to day as in what happened with Gay Marriage, you should know that!Whatever favors you is all that matter eh none, you liberal gay! I'm sticking up for the MAJORITY, like always! And don't worry muffin, i don't ride on private land, so you won't see me anywhere!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 8:07 pm EST

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Hey no it all, i have hike on trails in VT. NY. CO. NH. WY. and have log a few thousand miles on my legs over 30 yrs, i'm 49 so good try dip weed, and i'm sure in the winter when you look in the valley of rutland on certain days and you see that smoke haze lingering over it's from atvs, right, No ole smart one, thats haze from wood smoke and other pollutents, which i think you have taken in to much of, good try though Numb nuts!!!!!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 6:32 pm EST

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Is that a fact Mountain Boy, I didn't know theyy had ATVs 30 years ago, Seems Jorgensens Honda in Clarendon started selling 3 Wheelers about 23 or 24 years, so you beat them?

If I am the only one then why is their a discussion?

My land is closed and many others have their land closed and the Trails are not just on State Land.

As far as the rest of your post, Grow Up. Then again I am sure you are trying. LOL

Also Wood Smoke is nowhere near the pollute that ATVs produce, you really need to learn more about what you are talking about.


It seems ATV people really don't give a hoot about anybody else and there isn't two sides to the story as far as they are concerned. Want fun, get off your lazy A$$ and walk or run or hike but NO TO ATVs on any State Land. State means the people of Vermont own and we are all the people of Vermont and unless the Majority say YES!, then it is NO! to ATVs.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 4:26 pm EST

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Cars, lawn mowers, bikes, baby cribs,fair rides, kill children to Whit, thats a weak argument! Wood Stoves, cars pollute the air far more Whit, so don't burn wood or drive your car and put your gas mask on when you head outside, and get your head out of your a$$, that will help you think a little clearer also!!!!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 10:49 am EST

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and as far as the brown mud hole state, hmmm, might want to think about that one, thanks to our legislature we are already called that by other states!!!
-- Posted by paul mangan on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 10:10 am EST

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hey mtn. boy, i will get the moose steak to you this wk., i will guarantee you when you and i hunted together we logged more miles than these nancyboy "hikers", i am getting sick of the attacks on atv riders. i love how they paint everyone who owns an atv as an outlaw. i plow my driveway w/ mine i hope i dont offend anyone.
-- Posted by paul mangan on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 10:06 am EST

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ATVs should be illegal in Vermont. They are not only directly destructive of nature, but spew far more air pollution than cars. While snowmobiles also are polluting, they don't directly destroy trails, and fit with Vermont's winter recreational economy. When it comes to summer recreation, ATVs don't fit; their presence makes the trails less attractive to hikers, horseback riders, mountain bikers ... the vast majority of summer people.

The biggest reason ATVs should be illegal: The statistics on children killed and paralyzed from riding them are staggering. They simply are not safe, and are used far often by children than snowmobiles are. A society that tolerates ATVs, in doing so, shows it just doesn't care about the value of life - neither human nor that of the rest of nature.
-- Posted by Whit Blauvelt on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 9:40 am EST

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Hey none none, you seem to be the only one with a problem with atvs, so close up your land with locks and don't let a sole on your property, big deal! This is about opening state land or if your a land owner and you grant permission thats how it will work hopefully! I have rode on the same trails for 30 years and they are the same today almost as 30 yrs ago, plus trail mantinence will take place and water bars installed where needed! Why don't you cry about the roads we drive on around here, there worse then most atv trails, and does it really matter if deep in the woods the trails get a little rough, i think not! So do what paul said and let the rest of have fun! Hey paul, wheres my moose steak?
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 8:35 am EST

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People who buy ATVs, do NOT buy them to ride them on their own land, they buy them to ride them on someone else's.

Unlike Snowmobiles, ATVS damage the bare and soft land and do so for years to come, I have land that has been destroyed by ATVs and it is now permanently closed to them.

Yes! you have as much right to the trails as anyone else, but you need to park your ATV and walk or wait for snow.

I had gates left open, fences run over, trash, and soil eroded down to bare ledge and yet I am reading posts by people who paint such a pretty picture about ATV Riders. B.S.


All Terrain tires and soft dirt and anyone with a brain cell can figure out what happens.

ATVs are intrusive to wildlife and sure you may be able to drive up to them, the point is that ATVs don't belong in areas where the habitat is for the animals and not for ATVs. What don't you understand? You think because you own an ATV and you have registered you have a RIGHT to go and do as you please, even on other people's property?

Why do you think the fines are so heavy in the National Forest? Could it be that they recognize the ATV as an abusive and land scaring machine, that do nothing but scare wildlife, upset the balance and serenity of the Wild and destroy the forest flooring for years to come?

Why stop at ATVs, how about Off Road Wranglers, allow the Military to go in the same areas with their APCs for training. Why not?
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 6:43 am EST

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Paul,
You read the letter right. Vermont is the "All About Me" State. It's dominated by liberals who talk about "tolerance" but then refuse to practice what they preach. To them, if THEY do a certain activity, it's good and wonderful. If not, then they will condemn it. They are their own ethical and moral standard.

That's why there are liberals who will say SUVs are bad, even as they drive around in one. They just figure "well, *I* need an SUV; I'm an exception." It's the Culture of Me, what I consider to be VT's most distinctive aspect.
..
-- Posted by mark on Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 10:45 am EST

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I like the phrase "Brown Mud Hole State." Economically, that's what VT has been for a while now.
.
-- Posted by mark on Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 10:41 am EST

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what i got out of letter, was that hikers are much better than the rest of us, and they apparently crap cotton candy.
-- Posted by paul mangan on Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 8:46 am EST

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If (and I know that's the biggest word in government) there could be a reliable way for the taxes and user fees specifically collected for these recreational purposes to be directed at maintaining the infrastructure/land that they utilze, I think most people would not have an issue with their use.

However, as is normally the case these day, such taxes and fees are collected into the general fund, whereupon they serve to fund the general needs of the government instead of being put back to work supporting those who paid for a particular recreational privilege.
-- Posted by Bill O. Rights on Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 3:49 pm EST

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Although, I do not own or have used an ATV, I support an opportunity for them to enjoy our natural resources to it's fullest. There are plenty of jerks from every walk of life who disrespect our natural resources. More people on the trails the more likely punks will find someplace else to trash, like their own backyard.
-- Posted by Curious gt on Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 9:44 am EST

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I don't own an atv but have ridden with people who do and the people I ride with are the type to stop and pick up litter, help maintain trails etc. They also leave it better than they found it. Unfortanately there are always jerks in any group who ruin it for everyone. We just need to police our own, whatever activity that may be.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 9:11 am EST

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Snowmobilers and ATVers pay massive amounts of user fees and taxes to use trails. How does that compare to what hikers pay? Anyone know?
-- Posted by Joe Kerswile on Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 8:29 am EST

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