RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

Education costs out of control



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Published: January 14, 2009

The governor is right in his call to reform our education costs. Over a billion dollars to educate the decreasing number of elementary and secondary students is absurd.

We are paying over $13,000 per student, and most states do the same job for less than $10,000, some as low as $8,000. This drain on our already overtaxed citizens should be corrected immediately, and our representatives should have the intestinal fortitude to vote for us, not for the teachers union.

STEPHEN McCONNEL

Townshend








READER COMMENTS


COMFY---Really!!!! Look at what you said. "getting such poor results"---That is exactly the point---that is what we are supposed to be paying teachers for---results. it is high time we stopped looking to pass the blame in ten directions and recognized this fact. If the teachers cant teach for certain reasons, then it is incumbent on them, as a group, represented by THEIR STRONG UNION, to simply say to the boards---enough is enough, we cant teach for these reasons and we are not going to be held accountable for teaching when we are expected to be nursemaids, caretakers, social workers, jailers, parents, and "buddies" to all the little kids. Please let us teach and then the kids will all learn and we will not have "such poor results".
-- Posted by Townguy on Fri, Jan 16, 2009, 1:26 pm EST

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Please don't blame the teachers, they just don't make that much money. Also, the work that most of them do far exceeds the six hours or so a day that they spend in the classroom.
That being said, we really do need to figure out why we are spending so much on education and getting such poor results.
-- Posted by Comfy Anon on Fri, Jan 16, 2009, 6:28 am EST

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Nathan

I bring my work home as well and I am often called in to work a weekend. I get two days per 40 plus hour work week and I work for 48 weeks per year and have 4 weeks off, I get 5 Holidays and work the rest and I have no guarantee I will get a payraise next year. I also pay weekly for my Insurance and I have a co pay to pay at the Drs office when I go.
What is paid under Fringe Benifits with you, I have deducted out of my pay, so when I tell you what my annual pay is, there is no additional Fringe Benifit that takes care of Health Insurance, Social Security etc, that is all deducted from my pay.
Now another comparision, our Police Forces work longer hours, more Holidays and they get shot at for less money and less benifits.
Our military well, I think my point was already made.
There are plenty of occupations out there where long hours are endured and less time off is granted and larger deductions come out of the paycheck. There are occupations that have a high danger threat and that is the normal.
If you are indeed a True teacher Nathan and one who is willing to stay after school to help a student or gives that extra time to assist, well God Bless you and please keep up the good work. Unfortunately I have known way too many that are in it for the benifits and would stay after school for any reason, but to assist a student.

There are students at O.V. that go over a year without having a core subject. When I called with an interest to the reason why, I was told that Block Scheduling was to make it easier for the Teacher. I said I really didn't care about the Teacher, they were adults, I wanted to know why students were going over a year without a Core Subject. I was told, it wouldn't happen again. Two years later it happen again. Too many kids are falling through the cracks because the quality of what we are getting for our money is dropping.

I once read where Vermont was 44th in quality of education and we were somewhere around 4th for cost of education. That tells me, we need more quality, caring teachers and to boot the dead heads who are in it for the Benies. We need to consolidate the Supervisory Unions from 66 in the state to 14 or one per county. We need to hold the Superintendents accountable for the property entrusted to them and to the staff that work on the lower levels.
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 7:15 pm EST

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There are two points I would like to add to this discussion.

First, Salaries are the biggest bulk of the education cost. We need to get the classrooms back up to at least 30 or 35 pupils. We put men on the Moon from research by people who went to one room school houses.

I will use Otter valley H.S. as a reference to my point.
School year 2001 enrollment 755
Professional Salaries . $2283201
Total Staff costs ......$4454794

School year 2006 enrollment 718
Professional Salaries .. $2724753
Total Staff Costs .......$5449124

Enrollment was 734 in school year 93 and the total staff was was 105
Enrollment was 824 in school year 97 and the total staff was 134
Enrollment was 766 in school year 99 and the total staff was 143
Enrollment was 764 in school year 94 and the total staff was 92 (was able to do with 92 staff what 5 years later took 143 staff and only a difference of two students.)

Supervisory Office (there are 66 of these throughout the state, how about reducing to one per county?)
School year 2001
Superintendent's Salary ....$ 91324
Total fringe benefits Cost..$105143
Total Business Office Expenitures $758179

School year 2006
Superintendent's salary ....$109298
Total Fringe benefits costs $129328
Total Business Office Expenditures $1016906

My other point is that Special Needs Children should be taken care of by the Insurance Companies that the parents had when the child was born, not pass down the children that need the care to the Tax Payers. Schools are for Education, they are not meant to be nor should they be a replacement for Hospital Care, Institutional Care or for Home Care. Put the Financial Responsibility back where it belongs.
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 5:51 pm EST

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As a teacher, I can surely understand the frustrations of tax payers. Education is very expensive and there does need to be an overhaul and consolidation of the vast amounts of different supervisory unions, districts, etc. This would streamline things and cut administrative positions and costs. Blaming the teachers is not at all accurate. You think we are paid too well? That's laughable. Most teachers in the state have at least a Master's Degree and have to continually go to classes and jump through loopholes; far more than most professions. Also, schools are mandated to spend lots of money on special education. After teaching in othe states, I am very suprised by the number of special educators and paraeducators in Vermont. This is a huge cost, but Federal law mandates it. I think there could be some cutting of students who receive these services and that would cut costs.
-- Posted by Nathan Astin on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 11:08 am EST

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Greg---If ANY teacher, back even 20 years ago, got $5000 per student, they all would be averaging over $100,000 per year, and some (35 students per class) $175,000!!!!!

13 students in a classroom is a dream---and we are paying for that dreamworld!!!! Class sizes have simply got to go UP and consolidation MUST take place. Those that WON'T, CAN'T, OR DON'T handle that, simply should find another profession.

Friend thinks that "it is overhead, not teachers, that cause this". Just what do you think the biggest overhead cost in education is, friend?
-- Posted by Townguy on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 10:39 am EST

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I think everyone agrees that educating our youth is a moral imperative, but then again, it should be a moral imperative of government to be conscientious stewards of the taxpayers' dollars by focusing on essential services and controlling costs. Gregory's comment alludes to the growth of bureaucracy outside of the classroom, which is not part of the value stream that delivers education in the classroom. Those non-value-added, non-essential functions must be removed and the savings returned. Such an endeavor involves critical reasoning, objectivity, and difficult choices, but it must be done to reestablish credibility in our educational systems and the government that controls them.
-- Posted by Bill O. Rights on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 10:03 am EST

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My significant other is a well paid, experienced 28 year elementary teacher, she has 13 students in her class. Her income divided by the number of students is $ 5,000 per student....where does the additional $ 8,000 per student go????
-- Posted by Gregory Barsanti on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 9:33 am EST

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"Special education speding is way out of control. [sic]"

Please tell me, specifically, what you would like cut? Should we stop workplace readiness training for mentally handicapped students? Should we cut behavior intervention and counseling for emotionally disabled children? Should we cut gifted education programs? Should we cut programs designed for students with severe Autism?

One cost cutting method that was tried was the mass institutionalization of these children. Perhaps you would like to head back in that direction.

Yes, it is expensive. I agree. But, the education of students with disabilities is a moral imperative. Perhaps increased federal funds would help alleviate the local tax burden.
-- Posted by Dan Rice on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 7:03 am EST

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Education is no longer merely a value proposition, it is a political football that is punted back and forth, with each side attempting to end run each other with razzle, dazzle clever solutions that never address the root cause; thus the plague continues. Until all sides agree that government must be limited to the performance of essential services that must be operated within the now declining means of the taxpayer, optimization and efficiencies required to attain success will never materialize.
-- Posted by Bill O. Rights on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 10:47 pm EST

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Bruce is right. Vermont has too many schools for too few students. Consolidation needs to happen. Otherwise, education costs will continue to rise.

Most Vermont elementary schools are too small, making it hard on the teachers who may have to teach two or three different grade levels at the same time. Opportunities for social development are limited. Facilities are limited. Curriculum is limited. Costs are astronomical.
-- Posted by Mr. Moderate on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 9:33 am EST

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Your comments are well taken but we need to get a grip on reality.Too many schools and supervisory unions equals too many overstaffed schools/offices and underused facilities.Too many teachers with small classes, many with less than 10 students .Combine districts/schools and reduce the number of well paid administrators and teachers.Closing inefficient old schools will save a lot of oil and electricity and repairs
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 6:22 am EST

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Please keep in mind that cost per pupil goes up as enrollment goes down. It's the overhead, not teachers, that does this. We have a top heavy system here in Vermont. While small schools can be great, fewer districts to oversee them is one way to get our cost per pupil under control. Additionally, we have to keep in mind that the federal government places a lot a mandates on schools that are difficult for a smaller school to achieve cheaply. Special education speding is way out of control.
-- Posted by a friend on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 5:42 am EST

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