RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

Let the people vote on marriage



Toolbox

By John McClaughry - Published: March 12, 2009

Twelve years ago, no doubt emboldened by the Vermont Supreme Court's astonishingly imaginative opinion in Brigham vs. State (the 1996 education finance case), three same-sex couples went to court to demand that they be issued licenses to marry. They lost in the Superior Court, but were rewarded with the Supreme Court's 1999 opinion in Baker vs. State.

That opinion instructed the Legislature to promptly pass legislation giving same-sex couples "all or most" of the privileges of marriage (or else, the court strongly implied, it would simply proclaim same-sex marriage from the bench).

The result was the controversial civil unions law of 2000 that essentially gave same-sex couples all the benefits of marriage except joint income tax return filing.

Since then the Massachusetts, California and Connecticut supreme courts have held, notwithstanding the scarcity of state constitutional support, that same-sex couples have a right to participate in marriage on the same basis as opposite-sex couples.

Since these decisions, a wave of constitutional referenda has made it crystal clear in 30 states that marriage is available only to one man and one woman (who are of age, legally competent, not closely related, and not already married.) Indeed, never in U.S. history has either a state legislature or a vote of the people authorized same-sex marriage.

But that may soon change. Gay and lesbian activists believe that Vermont's ultraliberal Legislature can become the first in the nation to legalize same-sex marriage. On their behalf, Rep. Mark Larson and 58 Democratic cosponsors have introduced H.178, and Sens. Peter Shumlin, John Campbell and Claire Ayer have introduced S.115.

The issue raises high emotions on both sides. The gay and lesbian activists, and their many straight supporters, believe that legislating same-sex marriage will wipe out a long legacy of disgraceful discrimination, and confer the much sought after status of marriage on loving and mutually committed couples unfairly discriminated against.

Probably a majority of opponents base their opposition on religious grounds, as contrary to church teachings and natural law. There is also a secular argument that deserves more attention than it has gotten.

Marriage, so this argument goes, serves three important social functions: procreation and child rearing, mutual care and assistance, and reining in horny young males by linking approved sex to a serious and long-lasting social commitment.

True, the sexual liberalism that began in the '60s has undermined this third argument; nevertheless, it's important for the laws and customs to give maximum support to the traditional institution of marriage. At least that support will slow down the slide into totally commitment-free sexual license, resulting in ever more single mothers and fatherless children.

The gays and lesbians may well say, we're pro-marriage, and those are valid arguments, but how does allowing us, loving and committed couples, to enjoy the status and benefits of marriage undermine the institution of marriage?

The response is that prohibiting discrimination against same-sex couples seeking marriage cannot be limited to just those couples. If two men or two women can marry, why not two of each as a foursome? Or a Muslim taking four wives? Or brothers and sisters? Or an entire Perfectionist "complex marriage" commune (Putney, 1830s)?

Gay marriage advocates scoff at this as a red herring. They should, however, heed the argument made to the Supreme Court by Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell — certainly nobody's conservative — in the Baker appeal. Said he, "[If the Court accepts gay and lesbian Appellant's argument for] separating the [marriage] statutes from their language and their historical foundations, the groundwork will be laid for other groups to claim the right to marry. The most obvious are polygamists and proponents of group marriage. Following the arguments of Appellants, such persons would have strong claims to fit within the 'purposes' of the marriage statutes."

And there's the rub. Statutes and judicial opinions allowing every conceivable collection of humans to unite in legal marriage will eventually make the idea and practice of marriage a laughing stock — especially among young heterosexual males who society most wants to channel into stable, legally recognized relationships responsible for child rearing and support.

The Legislature was faced with just such an emotionally charged issue in 1976: whether to create a Vermont lottery. The Legislature decreed a referendum to get the opinion of the people. By a 72-28 margin, the voters supported the creation of a lottery. The next year the Legislature adopted it.

That would be the responsible thing for this Legislature to do on the issue of enlarging the definition of marriage. Then every legislator elected in 2010 would know where his or her constituents stood on the issue. The question could then be settled one way or the other with a clear mandate from the people.



John McClaughry is president of the Ethan Allen Institute (www.ethanallen.org).








READER COMMENTS


No matter on which side of the issue you reside, it might be worthwhile to direct your browser to the following sites:

http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/pdf/VT%20econ%20impact%20final.pdf

http://www.iglss.org/media/files/Angles_71.pdf

And ain't it wonderful that the good folk at the Rutland Herald don't charge by the word for the privilege of making our opinions known in this forum?
-- Posted by Wurdy Smithy on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 12:06 pm EST

report this comment



It's ok Dan, move on. No one cares what blog name you use here. You just provide an example of my point of view. I also know that with very little energy that you can get around this little obsticle. You know, the same thing your kind are trying to do in the sataehouse. NN#1
-- Posted by NONENONE ONE on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 10:05 am EST

report this comment



I'm the real NN#1.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 9:44 am EST

report this comment



Dan, try and hijack this one. NN#1
-- Posted by NONENONE ONE on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 8:56 am EST

report this comment



I truely hope that you are wrong David as I always thought Gov. Douglas had principals. Unlike Dan who just likes to sign my NN#1 at the end of his post pretending to be me. You can rest assured that if one shows up in favor of perverts, it isn't me but the guy pretending, just like he does in real life. Once a phony, always one. NN#1
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 8:25 am EST

report this comment



Gay marriage should be passed. NN#1
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 6:32 am EST

report this comment



If a state offers marriage recognition it may not violate the constitution. There is no right in and of itself to civil recognition of a marriage - just as there is no right to a government license to operate a motor vehicle. It is unequal treatment where rights might come into play. Probably our legislature will pass the same sex marriage recognition bill and it will be up to our governor as part of the legislative process to decide to allow this historic piece of legislation to become law. Governor Douglas is an astute politician. I can see him allowing this bill to become law thus cementing his hold on the governor's chair or even a US Senate seat if Mr. Leahy should unexpectedly choose not to run in 2010.
-- Posted by David Searles on Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 1:16 am EST

report this comment



Stop spreading hate.
-- Posted by Dan Rice on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 7:43 pm EST

report this comment



i could care less about whether gays get married, but i'd hate to see vermont go the way of many states and have referendums. every one of our founding fathers feared the chaos that could come with too much democracy, or what they termed mob rule. in fact, the modern-day democratic party, started its life being known as the republicans, because the term "democrat" in the robespierre-era world had negative connotations. anyway, letting the people vote on this, or any other, issue, would invite the uninformed and ignorant to set policy. let our elected officials do what they will, and if we don't like it we can vote them out.

more importantly, everyone on both sides should stop blaming the morons in our legislature, and blame the voters who put them there.
-- Posted by bill johnson on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 7:32 pm EST

report this comment



This argument has nothing to do with equal rights, that's the smoke screen that the gay community is using, it's about gays winning the battle over hetrosexuals to use the word married. You could grant gays all the same rights under the civil union arrangement but that's not what they are after. If the legislature votes to allow gay marriage with putting to a popular vote every one of them should be voted out of office at the earliest opportunity. Maybe the voters have a short memory, but then maybe the also have a good memory about issues that are dear to them. Don't be fooled it's not about rights, it's about beating the hetrosexuals and the simple word married.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 6:37 pm EST

report this comment



Marriage is not a civil or political right, it is a custom. Thats my belief and I'm sticking to it. I do not accept queers, gays, lesbians or any of the other perverts into this custom. They just want to validate their perversion. They can, as far as I'm concerned, start their own custom. I have no problem with their being happy, so long as it does't make a mockery of the customs that are in place now. It may be 2009 but some are wanting this society to go in a direction that I think is sick. NN#1
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 5:16 pm EST

report this comment



"The result was the controversial civil unions law of 2000 that essentially gave same-sex couples all the benefits of marriage except joint income tax return filing."

This is patently untrue. There is a long list of pensions, insurance, hospital visitation rts in other states, and numerous other rts that accrue when one is MARRIED.

No one's civil rights should EVER be put up to the vote. Unless you happen to believe in S Africa style apartheid, all rights should be equal for all citizens.

This backlash of anti civil rts letters is likely an organized attempt by the fundie churches to get their bible belting congregations on board, limiting others' freedoms as they attempt to do with women's rights to control their own bodies. Encourage them, and they'll be in YOUR bedroom next.

There are numerous churches that have proclaimed their support of equal rts for all this time around. To pretend otherwise is to pretend a consensus in favor of ancient superstitious custom that does not exist in a Vermont that has a lot of educated and somewhat enlightened Vermonters in residence.
-- Posted by lizr None on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 1:59 pm EST

report this comment



The Vermont legislature is out of touch with REAL Vermonters, I offer this video as evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlfgK-WjwUc

Montpelier should be glad we've become more judicious in our actions since the days of the Sons Of Liberty.

Otherwise some of these "representatives" would find themselves wearing a coating of tar and feathers.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 9:07 am EST

report this comment



Frankly David I think the other NN is talking out of his A--. NN#1
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 8:49 am EST

report this comment



Your diatribe NN (whichever one you are) makes absolutely no sense. First, you say that the majority of Vermonters approve of "marriage equality" which is a bogus term anyway...but then dismiss a referendum as "part of a shell game". So you believe that these polls should be taken as gospel? That is incredibly naive and laughable. What's the big deal if it does go to referendum if you believe that the majority of Vermonters support it?? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

The fact is, the legislature, starting last year, have carefully manipulated this issue(for whatever reason whether it be personal agendas or furtherance of their own political careers) in such a way to mitigate the damage to their political careers. It would essentially be political suicide if not done carefully, as the civil union legislation ended up being in 2000. The incredibly biased "commission" had their "findings" in writing to former Speaker of the House Symington well before the end of last year's session. Conveniently, it never made it to the floor, it was shrewdly put on the back burner....because they were too busy? Or because it was an election year?? Yet this year, when MUCH more important issues are on the table, election year has passed, and reelection doesn't come up for another year and a half, it all of a sudden becomes a "priority". Voters tend to have short memories, the Democrats and Progressives are counting on it.

Is that the way democracy is supposed to work? If it's the will of the people... then so be it. I find it disgraceful that politicians manipulate the system, thinking we are all dumb sheep, aren't they supposed to be carrying out the will of the people they represent? What better way than a referendum vote? If this was done with transparency and without manipulation from the start, then I sincerely doubt there would be a call for a referendum vote.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, civil unions provide all the legal rights and privileges that heterosexual couples receive, this legislation is symbolic, has no bearing on our economy, and should be the least of our legislator's concerns, especially in times like these. Challenging this legislation has nothing to do with homophobia or oppressing a minority, it has to do with common sense. Separate, different, and equal.
-- Posted by David Randall on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 10:28 pm EST

report this comment



McClaughry said: Indeed, never in U.S. history has either a state legislature or a vote of the people authorized same-sex marriage.

Actually, the California legislature has voted to authorize same-sex marriage twice. An election occurred between the votes demonstrating that legislators who voted to support marriage equality were not out of step with their constituents.

The Republican California governor vetoed the bill both times saying that it was an issue the courts should decide (typical Republican shell game). Later the California high court ruled that the California constitution requires marriage equality.

It seems likely that another legislature will vote to support marriage equality right here in Vermont in just a few weeks.

The call for a referendum here in Vermont is just another part of the shell game.

Every time some normal mechanism of our system of government recognizes the right of same sex couples to enjoy equality in marriage (via the normal function of the judicial branch of government, or the legislative branch of government) a new mechanism is said to be the only legitimate way for gay people to exercise their rights as citizens.

It used to be that opponents of marriage would say that it should be up to the legislative branch to decide the issue, not the "activist" courts. But then opponents realized that some legislatures would pass laws affirming the right to marriage equality. And when the California legislature did just that (twice) the Republican governor suddenly decided that it should be up to the courts.

Here in Vermont, it used to be that opponents of marriage equality would say that the "will of the majority" should prevail (to heck with the checks and balances against the tyranny of the majority built into our system by the founding fathers).

But now, all of the scientifically sound opinion polls show that the majority of Vermonters support marriage equality. Even the unscientific polls like the Doyle town meeting poll show that a majority support equality.

So opponents have turned to another tactic. The well documented will of the majority is no longer good enough, and a new standard is said to be required. Now opponents call for a referendum. They no longer want the "will of the people" to prevail. That was an argument of convenience, and has been quickly dropped now that the majority favors marriage equality. Instead, they hope that a motivated minority (opponents to marriage equality) will be able to go to the polls and out vote a less motivated majority (those who favor marriage equality).

Beyond that, the call for a referendum is a delay tactic. And it is especially appealing tactic because it sounds like you are continuing to champion the "will of the people," and implies that legislators who pass a marriage bill are acting contrary to the will of the people (although the opposite is the case).
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 9:10 pm EST

report this comment



Society is holistic and organic. It is made of different gradations and strata and hierarchies and authority rests in different sources. One of those sources is the natural family. The natural family is of course a marriage between a man and a woman sanctified by the faith tradition these two people who have chosen to embrace. This natural family is the basic unit of society if there is a disruption in that foundation then the holistic and organic fabric of society begins to disintegrate. This is why homosexuality is incompatible with a healthy community and why gay marriage should be opposed at all costs.
-- Posted by N. P. West on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 8:19 pm EST

report this comment



Nicolosi and Socarides are totally discredited.

Socarides used to claim that homosexuality was caused by early family trauma.

His son is now a spokesperson for the gay and lesbian community.

Spitzer has repeatedly complained about NARTH et al taking his research out of context. What he found was that a very small minority (1-2%) of very motivated homosexuals who want to change, can change their behavior. They may be the ones who aren't really gay to begin with!
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 7:27 pm EST

report this comment



Lets vote now, I vote "NO", now lets go fishing, I need a nap. NN#1
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 4:00 pm EST

report this comment



"The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable.
Dr. Robert L. Spitzer M.D."

"Dr. Robert L. Spitzer's study was funded by his department's research unit. He is Professor of Psychiatry and Chief of Biometrics at Columbia University.

"Like most psychiatrists," says Dr. Spitzer, "I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that's untrue, some people can and do change."


NARTH
"Executive Director/Secretary Treasurer and co founder is Joseph Nicolosi of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino CA.

Their late president and co founder was Charles Socarides, of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York NY. Both have written widely on reparative therapy. Their current president is Dr. Philip Sutton. He "... practices at two outpatient counseling centers, two elementary schools, and a Catholic seminary."

"Psychologist Evelyn Hooker",
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 2:05 pm EST

report this comment



The first article of the Declaration of Independence states-"That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." Can't we all agree that gay men and women deserve the right to be happy and pursue that right so long as society is not harmed?

To all you religious fanatics out there why don't we interpret everything in the bible as gospel(pun intended). Ephesians 5:22-24 (American Standard Version) says

22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the savior of the body.
24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.

That should end a few "hetero-sexual" marriages.

People get real, we're put on this Earth to go about or lives and "Love thy neighbor"
isn't that the crux of life?
-- Posted by Eric Traska on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 12:02 pm EST

report this comment



Dr. Gonzo, while you may be "pretty sure" oral sex is illegal, it isn't.

And Arnie: I agree that people should do the research. If they do it via legitimate sources (i.e. professionals and scientists) with an open mind, there is no doubt which side they'll come down on, and it isn't yours.

I'll repeat my challenge to you to find someone with a degree in the health sciences or psychology in Vermont who buys your claims. The professional organizations in Vermont have already weighed in -- and they're on our side. We're waiting for your side.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 11:29 am EST

report this comment



Marriage is and should always be betwen ONE man and ONE woman.

Marriage is not a RIGHT and no where in the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Indepnedence or the Federalist Papers is there any mention of Marriage and the Government involvement.

This country was founded on Religious Values and principles(see Mayflower Compact of 1620) and to think that Gays deserve anything other than Medical Research and Treatment is Ludicrous.

Sodomy or male to male Oral sex is nothing short of repulsive and those who engage in such acts have something definetely out of order.

Love is a poor excuse to allow such perverted lifestyles to continue. It is immoral and wrong, by every definition, for those who support it, then you might as well support Pedophilia and lower the age of consent to 7 or 8. Mulitple Wives for those who handle more than ONE, Marrying family or first cousins or even the mental retarded should also be allowed if boundaries are going to be erased because some feel that they look normal, so therefore they must be normal and DESERVE to be able to alter Society's Rules.

Children should NOT be forced to have to live with a group that has a far higher than normal percentage of Molestors, Pedophiles and serial killers coming from their low population percentage of only 1 to 2%.

RESEARCH for yoursleves and DO NOT listen to the Gay supporters, Research because the result of this Bill could put a lot of children at risk all so someone can make an insane statement.
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 9:40 am EST

report this comment



Ernest,
Thanks for straightening me out on the sodomy laws.
Though I'm pretty sure oral sex is still illegal in 18 states. I agree that what you do in your bedroom should not be regulated by the government. But I dont agree that getting married to someone of the same sex is a right.
You guys are barking up the wrong tree anyway. You already have all your equal marriage rights in VT with your CU's. You just want the IRS and the Fed. to recognize it too. So, you really need to take this issue to a federal court, not the VT legislature. Being a good 2% of the population, I'm sure they will listen.
-- Posted by Dr. Gonzo on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 8:48 am EST

report this comment



Wow you homophobes sure have nothing better to do haha ya'll are a sad bunch of children who need to stfu and myob. I'd rather be in the company of a male gay couple then sit with some of the obnoxious self absorbed twits in this forum.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Mar 15, 2009, 8:03 am EST

report this comment



per the U.S. Census the Total numberof Gays in the U.S. is betwen 1 1/2 to 2%. 10% was used by Gay Groups because they felt it had more impact, it is very far from being the accurate number. Multiple Surveys worldwide have concluded that there is not a single population anywhere on this planet that has more than 3% of it, Homosexual.

Ask anyone who claims 10% to provide a Credible Source for their number and I will lay a wager thery can not produce one. Guaranteed. 1 1/2 to 2% is it. Period, end of discussion. Per U.S. Census what the links? I have posted them before and can easily do it again.
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 11:38 pm EST

report this comment



10 percent of the population? Try 5.
-- Posted by Tom Zebo on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 10:00 pm EST

report this comment



Bill i perfectly agree with you!

Any type of family arrrangement should be allowed so long as it is deemed healthy and safe for the children!
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 9:32 pm EST

report this comment



I notice that nobody here wants to take on the perfectly logical argument that if gays have a right to marry, so should polygamists, incestuous couples, etc. so here goes- the state should have nothing to do with marriage whatsoever. no license fees, no blood tests, no nothing. let anybody who wants to call themselves married do so. it certainly won't hurt anybody else, as long as the tax code is altered to stop discriminating against single people. any and every religion can decide for itself what marriages to sanction or not sanction, the government will have nothing to do with it. then we'll have total equality, less government interference in our private lives, and I can stop listening to everybody waste their time talking about such a stupid issue when there are real problems to worry about.
-- Posted by bill johnson on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 8:28 pm EST

report this comment



You're right, i incorrectly used the word right, i meant to use privilege.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:57 pm EST

report this comment



Since when is Marriage a RIGHT?

What RIGHT does Marriage fall under and what Amendment or Article covers marriage?

If you do not ask a person their SEXUAL PREFERENCE and you read off all the Rights identified in the Bill of Rights, would anyone have different rights from the other?

Which one and why?

People are growing tired of your repeated denial that all arguments AGAINST gay Marriage, are made up and hateful and ONLy the Pro Gays have actual facts. LOL you are forcing the people to unite against your rants and you may find yourselves without even the Civil Unions.

Patients NOT Parents
-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:54 pm EST

report this comment



And also, Common Sense, allowing same sex marriage would provide for every single human being in this country of consentable age, not just my minority. Theres only 3 possible combinations of genders. Male to male, female to female, and male to female. Marriage as it is currently defined provides for males who wish to marry females and vice versa. The allowance of same-sex marriage would further that right to the other two groups, males who wish to marry males and females who wish to marry females. No matter which way you slice it, that covers all people.

So i would beg to differ and say its YOUR majority that is hypocritical and selfish.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:25 pm EST

report this comment



I believe that everyone, regardless of their status as a minority or majority should be entitled to the priveleges they desire so long as they are moral.

And that's where many of the differences come about. Your view of what is moral, Common Sense, if different than mine. Not to say either view is better or worse than the other, just different.

That is what constructs the beautiful struggle of America. We are all united by a constant struggle to achieve our needs and desires.

I would also not consider the gay community a small faction of America. We represent 10% of the population.

And my preferred definition of marriage wouldn't suit ONLY me. There wouldn't be any subtraction of rights to any group, simply an addition of rights to the gay right's community. Whats wrong with progress? Would you feel less "special" because your majority group is no longer solely entitled to a privilege?

You wouldnt call the integration of the armed services a hypocritical act would you? African Americans are after all a minority.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:13 pm EST

report this comment



The courts established marriage equality in MA in 2004 and in CA and CT last year.

But before the Supreme Court of CA made marriage legal, the legislature TWICE approved extending full marriage rights, but Arnold vetoed it twice because of Prop. 22.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:05 pm EST

report this comment



To NONE NONE
I see, so you want to determine the definition of marriage so it suits you only. Sorry, I don't go for any double standards. If you want to change the definition of marriage for one minority, it is only right that it should be for all minorities; you don't get to choose. It would be convenient though for you. Wouldn't you feel like a hypocrite if only your small little section was the only alternative lifestyle with added privilages?
-- Posted by Common Sense on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 6:35 pm EST

report this comment



Oh I'm sorry, i just realized it was the courts in those states that legalized it. Vermont wants to do it legislatively. I apologize for trying to correct something that was right in the first place.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 5:55 pm EST

report this comment



One fact you have wrong in your article:

"Indeed, never in U.S. history has either a state legislature or a vote of the people authorized same-sex marriage."

California legalized same sex marriage for a short period of time and it is currently legal in Massachusetts.

The problem is not a state issue, all the rights a state can possibly provide to any couple are provided in civil union. It's the federal benefits of marriage that cannot be provided on a state level and that is what the gay community and it's allies are fighting for. I really don't care what it says on paper, as long as i have 100% equal rights as a heterosexual couple at the local, state, and federal level i will be happy. I can still call it marriage if I want. Atleast the first amendment is applicable to the gay community.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 5:40 pm EST

report this comment



"Being in a gay marriage is a civil right? If so, sodomy should be legal too."

Dr. Gonzo, sodomy is already legal, and practiced by both heterosexuals and homosexuals, FYI. All state sodomy laws (many had been repealed long ago) were invalidated after the 2003 Lawrence v. Texas Supreme Court decision which struck down the Texas same-sex sodomy law. What goes on in private between consenting adults is not the business of the state or anyone else and has no bearing on the right to marry.
-- Posted by Ernest McLeod on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 1:31 pm EST

report this comment



Wow! What a great article! Right to the point isnt it. I think I brought up the voting thing about three weeks ago. We should vote on it. Its really not a civil rights issue at all. Being in a gay marriage is a civil right? If so, sodomy should be legal too. Its my civil right to have anal sex? What does anything I do in my bedroom have to do with civil rights? How bout we vote on that one too. And its true, if we vote on it, it will get shot down. There just are not enough gay folk and gay sympathisers out there to pass it. The author is right. If this law does pass, then it will open up a whole other can of marrige worms. I like the polygamy example best. Yeah baby!, I love all three of these women and they love me, therefore it is my civil right that all four of us be married, live happily ever after and have tons of kids.
Got to admit, if you gay folks can re-define traditional marriage, then so can I. I can define it anyway I want to.
Thats it. I'm starting the VT Polygamist Right To Marry Party. Please send donations directly to me.
See you in Montpelier.
-- Posted by Dr. Gonzo on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 12:36 pm EST

report this comment



Edit:

We are teaching our society/children that we do not practice what we preach. We do not accept our own words.





"Common Sense" - You bring up polygamists again.

I simply think "marriage" is a state of companionship between 2 people. Committed and hopefully everlasting.

Committed has a lot of meanings. It can mean just trying to keep the family together. Working hard to make eachother happy. Committed to your work to keep your family supported. Or committed physically/emotionally.

Many happily married people engage in many strange fantasies/relationships outside of their marriage. So many marriages break the committed rule in the bedroom. But it's not my place to judge them on that. That is their choice to live their life.

Polygamy:
I don't know much about that Culture. But I don't hear about 1 woman having many husbands and if that even allowed in their culture.

If it is not allowed. Obviously their culture is breaking the basic laws of our nation. (Equal Rights) Therefore, until they changed their ideals. You would never see this change in our nation. And it has nothing to do with this topic anyhow.

We are still talking about "Marriage" between two people.



Remember there is no disorder with the GAY people. Since the dawn of creation. A man and a woman are the ONLY two able to bear children. Throughout history these acts have taken place. This is not a disorder like so many believe it is.


I don't know why people fear this so much. Our largest concern should be about the world and the fact we are over producing children in this world. This planet is being over populated. Maybe, just maybe, this is nature's way of controlling that fate. Maybe, just maybe, this will help slow down the population growth. Maybe, just maybe, adopted children will have loving parents.

We do have larger things to worry about. I see nothing wrong with making people happy and moving on.

Preventing "Gay Marriage" doesn't hide the truth. We have already accepted this lifestyle in our society.

CF
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 12:23 pm EST

report this comment



God.. Not another one of these threads...

I say, "Aye to Gay Marriage".

Again, Tom, sodomy will never be legalized. Sodomy includes beastiality in it's definition. Stop assuming it will be legalized with "Gay Marriage". You cannot legalize a word that has more than one definition. If one of the definitions are not going to be legalized. Understood? Yet? Do you get it? Does it compute? Or do we need 100 more threads before you understand this simple fact?

Being GAY is NOT against the law. Beastiality IS!




I wouldn't assume David has a closed mind. You can't have a closed mind and have his views on religion. But he does seem a little closed minded on this topic. I'm not sure exactly why. Maybe, people have not put enough "Solid" info/reasons infront of him to change his mind?

For me it is simple. People are being denied equal rights. We know they are being denied "SOME RIGHTS". Even if they are these little, tiny rights. No one should be denied rights.

Everyday we see hate crimes and the like. I believe, as a society, if we accept this and nurture this. Slowly, we can educate our youth to not be afraid or insecure about this. And, hopefully, that has a positive effect on our society. At first it could get ugly. But it should get better. Sadly, we can't control what "Religion/Cults" will do. Their activists can, and have been known to, get out of hand.


Truths:
Being GAY is not illegal. We allow people to live this lifestyle. We allow GAY people to live together. We have been allowing them to raise children. It is not illegal for them to meet people, date, and find companionship. In no way are they breaking the law of this nation.

Why do you think it is so easy to deny them "Marriage"?


Jesus & God have never written anything saying it was immoral. Only conservative man has. Fact. For those that try to add religion/bible to this cause. Not everyone is religious. It's wasted breathe. It holds no weight.


For those that continue to whine about the word Marriage:

Heterosexuals have ruined the sanctity of marriage many years ago. Hollywood uses marriage for tabloids and lifting careers. Las Vegas uses marriage as a way of tourism. Many States do not honor marriages that occurred in Las Vegas because of that fact. The prenuptial agreement was founded for all of these facts. People DO NOT stay together. Over 50% divorce rate in this nation. "Til death do us part." Um... whatever... it's all B.S. What sanctity of marriage? Get over it. It has not been held to a moral high ground.


Gays should be allowed to marry and use the term "Marriage" and to recieve ALL of the fruits/rewards that other married people have.


AS A SOCIETY:
It is just simply wrong to deny the truth. As a society we have been trying to teach our youth. It's ok to be different. It's ok to be gay. It's ok to find your path to happiness. What are we teaching/telling them if we simply cannot allow them the same rights as everyone else?

We are teaching our society/children? That we do not practice what we preach. We are failures to our ideals. We are just words without action. We are all a bunch of hypocrits? Do we just keep hiding from "The Topic" hoping it goes away?

I hate to remind you all. This topic isn't going away. There is no changing this. As a society we have accepted this. It's time to take the next step.

Lastly:
Many do not view the same feelings toward two women. Since it is viewed by many to be ok, even exciting. Their hatred and disagreement purely comes from two men. Hypocrits!

CF (Happily Married and Divorced).. lol.. :-)
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 11:11 am EST

report this comment



I don't claim to be smarter or better than anyone here. I do know what I think is right and wrong. I also know that driving is not a right but a responsibility and requires a license. Flying a plane is the same. Drinking does not require a license but is prohibited untill one reaches a mandatory age as set forth by the people. Now don't kill me but I think that came about by way of voting. I'm sure some knowledgeable person will give us exact info. Smoking was touched on as well. Everyone has a good point when looked at from their own perspective. We all seen to be hung up on definitions and interpitation. Marriage is not a right as it requires a license and has rules that must be met when appling for it. Where in the constitution does it say we have the "right to marry", drive a car, smoke, drink or fly a plane. Once we move away from voting on any topic that influences great numbers of people we will no longer be a democracy. Stalin wins.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 10:59 am EST

report this comment



"The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it."

---Ancient Chinese proverb.
---Or maybe Benjamin Franklin.
---Or maybe Abraham Lincoln.
---Who cares? It's true.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 10:56 am EST

report this comment



No, David, I guess not. Enlightenment requires an open mind, something you have demonstrated repeatedly that you do not have. This will be the last time I respond directly to you in these forums. Please afford me the same courtesy.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 5:29 am EST

LOL, couldn't conjure any rights huh SC Boy? Go ahead and tuck your tail and run, you're not going to address any more of my posts? Now there is something I'm going to lose a ton of sleep over.



"Next thing you know David Randall will want to vote on whether or not the blacks should come out of their houses on Saturday nights!!!! LOL!!!!!
This is why you moron, that the MAJORITY NEVER DICTATES RIGHTS TO A MINORITY. Please get it through that thick head of yours!!!!!
Bye"
- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:29 am EST

Blacks coming out of their houses on Saturday nights? What in the hell are you talking about? So now I'm a racist?? While I have no need to defend myself against an anonymous coward like you NN, I will tell you that I served in the Army infantry for five years. In that time, I served and became friends(and in some ways, family) with African-Americans, Hispanics, Polynesians, and just about every other ethnicity... sleeping in the dirt, sweating and bleeding....for t.u.r.d.s. like you...so that you have the freedom to speak and express your opinions...even if you are a coward that hides behind a pseudonym...call me a bigot and a homophobe all you want, race has NOTHING to do with this argument, and YOU are the moron for turning this debate in that direction.

"They are just scared, insecure little boys who have hang up just about everything and if you are different then them. (That's straight, white males). The are Republicans and we all know the GOP is filled with white, childish, insecure and the uneducated in this country."

I'm white, secure, and have two degrees...at least you got the ethnicity right. It's funny how the people that have a different point of view than you liberal loons can be attacked, but if someone started throwing around terms like freaks, fags, and other colorful adjectives then there would be an uproar...why is that?
-- Posted by David Randall on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 9:20 am EST

report this comment



None None's writing shows what a true hypocrit he is, the law books are full of laws where the majority is telling the minority how to live, I think it's part of society, we live by the will of the majority. We tell 18 year old's they can't drink, but they can be sent to war and die for us, we prohibit sex with minors, we ban poligamy, why isn't none none screaming to free these people from societies oppression? How about drug users, people who want to own machine guns? The argument against a vote is simply they know gay marriage would get voted down, the bottom line though is that our representatives are suppose to represent the will of the people, which people the majority or the vocal minority?
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 8:39 am EST

report this comment



Next thing you know David Randall will want to vote on whether or not the blacks should come out of their houses on Saturday nights!!!! LOL!!!!!

This is why you moron, that the MAJORITY NEVER DICTATES RIGHTS TO A MINORITY. Please get it through that thick head of yours!!!!!

Bye

Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:29 am EST .



NONE NONE is pretty free with his mouth and feels that insulting a poster by calling him names, is a justified response.

None None, Everyone, right now has the exact smae rights as the other. Please, you seem to be on this RIGHTS issue, so WHAT RIGHT IS BEING DENIED TO A GAY?
Gays have DECIDED on their own, that they do not want to play by the Rules of Society, instead they want Society to change the rules to fit them. IT isn't RIGHTS you are relating to, it is RULES and there is a DIFFERENCE between Rights and Rules. A Gay Man may marry a woman and enjoy on the benefits of marriage, instead he rather have SODOMY, live in a perverted lifestyle and be accepted as being normal.WRONG! He is not NORMAL.

-- Posted by Arnie Thibault on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 8:27 am EST

report this comment



Next thing you know David Randall will want to vote on whether or not the blacks should come out of their houses on Saturday nights!!!! LOL!!!!!

This is why you moron, that the MAJORITY NEVER DICTATES RIGHTS TO A MINORITY. Please get it through that thick head of yours!!!!!

Bye
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:29 am EST

report this comment



SC Boy,

You are wasting your time with the likes of David Randall and others in this forum.

They are just scared, insecure little boys who have hang up just about everything and if you are different then them. (That's straight, white males). The are Republicans and we all know the GOP is filled with white, childish, insecure and the uneducated in this country.
.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 7:25 am EST

report this comment



No, David, I guess not. Enlightenment requires an open mind, something you have demonstrated repeatedly that you do not have. This will be the last time I respond directly to you in these forums. Please afford me the same courtesy.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Sat, Mar 14, 2009, 5:29 am EST

report this comment



They have all the civil rights I do SC Boy, care to enlighten us which ones they don't?
-- Posted by David Randall on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 9:09 pm EST

report this comment



No way that will ever happen,no matter how much the gay culture claims legalized sodomy is spiking in popularity.NO WAY!!.And why risk what's been risked too many times and find yourself once again at the losing end of the shrimping stick where once again you are forced to take it to court.

Just do what they did in Mass.Get a few judges to find a loophole that allows gay marriage in a constitution written over 230 years ago by a man named John Adams,who happened to be very religious and your in!!!


Geez,down in Mass. the judges gave politicians a scant 6 months to figure out all the amendments and details for the loophole that allows gay marriage in a constitution written over 230 years ago,hardly enough time for gays to pick out silverware placement for their rapidly approaching nuptials.

Those judges are definitely in the wrong line of work.If they can find a loophole that permits gay marriage in a constitution written over 230 years ago by a very religious man,then they can find anything.They should be out searching for Osama.They'd find him in a day.

Just ask Senate Majority leader,John Campbell.John's a whale you know.John likes to spread his kooky ideas everywhere.

I am a whale,I am a whale,a mighty wind Senator Campbell blows
I am a whale,I am a whale and I don't care where I go!

I am a whale,a mighty wind Senator Campbell blows

Because I don't give a hump where I ***********
Because the sea dissolves my feces
-- Posted by Tom Zebo on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 8:43 pm EST

report this comment



The same ones you have, David.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 7:41 pm EST

report this comment



Which civil "rights" are those SC Boy.....which civil...which civil....which civil...which civil....which civil...
-- Posted by David Randall on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 7:04 pm EST

report this comment



For the umpteenth million time: Civil rights are not voted on. They are granted to all citizens by the constitution.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 6:28 pm EST

report this comment



"Indeed, never in U.S. history has either a state legislature or a vote of the people authorized same-sex marriage."

WRONG. The California legislature did it not once, but twice.
Schwarzenegger vetoed it, but the legislature authorized same sex marriage twice, in 2005 and 2007.

McClaughry doesn't really know much about the issue, as is obvious from the rest of his piece.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 6:26 pm EST

report this comment



The Constitutional right to marry is being denied to a segment of the population.

No majority should have the right by voting to take away or continue to take away rights of a minority.

Period.

End of discussion.

-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 5:32 pm EST

Are your kidding me? Our entire government is based on the fact that majority rules! This just goes to show how out of touch you people are.
You apparently missed the whole point of the article anyway. Unless you aree that polygimists and couples of 4 should be aloud the same recognition/benefits being proposed. Reality check people.
-- Posted by Common Sense on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 5:59 pm EST

report this comment



The Constitutional right to marry is being denied to a segment of the population.

No majority should have the right by voting to take away or continue to take away rights of a minority.

Period.

End of discussion.
,
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 5:32 pm EST

report this comment



"I love that "I don't want to have to pay for X" line you use. I currently pay several thousand dollars MORE in taxes than my straight colleagues because a) I can't file a joint tax return and b) my partner's health care is considered taxable income.
I don't want to have to pay that any more. It's not fair.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:05 pm EST"

News flash Kevin, Vermont going through with this farce won't change your ability to file jointly or alter any other federal tax law. For God's sake, would you people quit using asinine and irrelevant arguments, first the projected boost in our economy and the continued reiteration of imaginary "rights" you will receive....I don't know what's more pathetic, the fact that this is a "priority" now, or the ridiculous and untrue(or unproven) reasons you morons keep coming up with to justify it.



"NO majority population should dictate basic rights to any minority.
If we let the voters decide whether or not there should be gay marriage, what's next? A majority decides to enslave another minority?
People get real and accept the fact that gay marriage is coming and it will pass.
Have a nice day!"
So then, None, who decides? Who then will exert their will over the land if not its people?
Who is your dictator?
-- Posted by Scott Frank on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:12 pm EST

So if the majority of Vermonters are in support of gay marriage then why such the disdain over a popular vote?? You shouldn't care if it goes to popular vote...in fact, you should be pushing for it. Oh that's right, it's another little lie concocted for beating us over the head with this non-issue.
-- Posted by David Randall on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:35 pm EST

report this comment



"NO majority population should dictate basic rights to any minority.

If we let the voters decide whether or not there should be gay marriage, what's next? A majority decides to enslave another minority?

People get real and accept the fact that gay marriage is coming and it will pass.

Have a nice day!"

So then, None, who decides? Who then will exert their will over the land if not its people?

Who is your dictator?
-- Posted by Scott Frank on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:12 pm EST

report this comment



In a word: democracy.
-- Posted by Scott Frank on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:08 pm EST

report this comment



Sense, you left your first name out of your post: Non.

Do you even realize that conservative gay people (with whom I also disagree) use the AIDS/promiscuity argument to argue FOR marriage? (Sort of like McClaughry's crazy line about "reining in horny young men") Still, trust me: the gay men who are getting married (especially in VT) are mostly not the ones who are HIV .

But your argument is multiply wrong either way: TWICE as many Civil Union couples are WOMEN, and they have a lower incidence of AIDS than most other populations. Do we not allow IV drug users to marry?

I love that "I don't want to have to pay for X" line you use. I currently pay several thousand dollars MORE in taxes than my straight colleagues because a) I can't file a joint tax return and b) my partner's health care is considered taxable income.
I don't want to have to pay that any more. It's not fair.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:05 pm EST

report this comment



"Religious arguments are valid within religious communities only and do not apply to civil functions of the secular state."

That would be a good argument for the State not being involved in marriage at all, if it were true...but the founders of Vermont disagree.

Article 3. [Freedom in religion; right and duty of religious worship]

"That all persons have a natural and unalienable right, to worship Almighty God, according to the dictates of their own consciences and understandings, as in their opinion shall be regulated by the word of God; and that no person ought to, or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or ***** or support any place of worship, or maintain any minister, contrary to the dictates of conscience, nor can any person be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of religious sentiments, or peculia[r] mode of religious worship; and that no authority can, or ought to be vested in, or assumed by, any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner control the rights of conscience, in the free exercise of religious worship. Nevertheless, every sect or denomination of christians ought to observe the sabbath or Lord's day, and keep up some sort of religious worship, which to them shall seem most agreeable to the revealed will of God. "

§ 68. [Laws to encourage virtue and prevent vice; schools; religious activities]

"Laws for the encouragement of virtue and prevention of vice and immorality ought to be constantly kept in force, and duly executed; and a competent number of schools ought to be maintained in each town unless the general assembly permits other provisions for the convenient instruction of youth. All religious societies, or bodies of people that may be united or incorporated for the advancement of religion and learning, or for other pious and charitable purposes, shall be encouraged and protected in the enjoyment of the privileges, immunities, and estates, which they in justice ought to enjoy, under such regulations as the general assembly of this state shall direct."

This idea of absolute Separation of Church and State at anything but the Federal Level is the biggest hoodwinking ever perpetuated upon the American people.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 4:00 pm EST

report this comment



Well, Judy, I disagree. AIDS is an important issue. What comes first. The risk of a STD disease or the risk of marriage. I think we all know what comes first.
The "dating" period is all part of any relationship. How many gay men have found out after their relationship has changed or ended, that they have AIDS. If you are going to have and intelligent argument one must look at society as a whole and not just a little world were one is in love and wants to civil union. I think you are ignoring the issues because it will only require you to admit there is an issue with AIDS and the gay community. I don't want to have to pay for the risks associated with gay sex. It is not OK because of that reason.
-- Posted by Sense O'Reality on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 3:20 pm EST

report this comment



There IS no objective argument against allowing same-sex couples to marry.
AIDS statistics have nothing to do with marriage.
Ability or wish to procreate is not a prerequisite for marriage.
Religious arguments are valid within religious communities only and do not apply to civil functions of the secular state.
Arguments about "tradition" are tautological, since they merely state that the status quo is the status quo.
Arguments about polygamy and group marriage have nothing to do with 2-person marriage of either same-sex or heterosexual couples.
No one has ever shown one single specific instance in which civil unions have harmed anyone or anything and no one has ever presented credible evidence that marriage equality will harm anyone or anything in any specific way.
Smoking on the other hand is 100% bad for everyone all the time. I urge Sense O'Reality to continue his campaign against smoking--which has nothing whatever to do with marriage.
-- Posted by Judy Olinick on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 3:11 pm EST

report this comment



Since Notta wants to silence any objective argument against gay marriage, I'll weigh in using a now common argument against smoking. The Left, mostly the Liberals like to argue smoking is bad for you. It is bad for those around you and it is bad for your children. It raises health costs because it causes illness and disease. It causes death and suffering. That is why our representatives can tax the hell out of cigarettes. That's why they can tell where and when you can or can not smoke. It is a decision you make. Therefore, those that make the decision to smoke will pay the price.
Freddy Mercury, a gay man claimed he slept with over 3,000 men. He died of AIDS at the age of 45. Freddy had money to pay for his health care cost. AIDS is the number one killer among the gay community. Promoting a gay lifestyle tells our teenagers that are curious about sex that being gay is OK. It is not. It comes with risks. Some will kill you. Who will pay for the higher rate of AIDS cases in our society? You and I will pay, no different than the smokers. Another fact, Hugh Hefnor claims to have slept with over 3,000 women. He is still alive and sleeping with women a quarter of his age of 81.
Remember, Brown or Pink, stop and think.
-- Posted by Sense O'Reality on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 2:26 pm EST

report this comment



I'm not sure if John McClaughry is being disingenuous or simply dimwitted, but his arguments against civil marriage equality are empty.

His most prominent argument for "traditional" marriage is "reining in horny young males by linking approved sex to a serious and long-lasting social commitment." Excuse me, but how does allowing same-sex couples to marry conflict with a goal of keeping young heterosexual men from running wild? Funny, love and respect don't enter into McClaughry's concept of marriage.

Then, there's the old slippery slope argument. Allowing same-sex couples to marry will open the door to bigamists, polygamists, and, presumably, sheep, dogs, and water fowl. Nonsense. Firstly, I haven't seen the polygamist (or duck) community in VT lining up at the Supreme Court's door to make their case. Secondly, if they made such an argument, they would have to make it on its own merits. 12 people marrying is not comparable to 2 people marrying. It's a different argument, and no one is making it. Gay people made their argument, after decades of grassroots work and education, and they won in VT. He can't rewrite the Supreme Court decision.

As for the referendum idea: So, because there was a referendum in 1976, on the subject of the lottery, we should put civil rights up for popular vote? McClaughry seems unable to distinguish between human beings and gambling. (Perhaps why love doesn't figure into his assessment of human relations.) Referendums, on any issue, but particularly on civil rights issues, are divisive, costly, typically filled with misinformation, and unnecessary. They invite outside money and influence and, like billboards, have no place in VT. Our state is better than that.

Contrary to McClaughry's assertion, allowing same-sex couples to marry via the legislative process is a sign of progress, one VT should be proud of. But, since his arguments are rooted in decades-old thinking, his ideas of progress are likely similarly archaic.
-- Posted by Ernest McLeod on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 11:26 am EST

report this comment



Suppose just for a moment we buy the argument that marriage is about reining in "horny young males."

Does McClaughry mean to imply horny young gay males don't need any "reining in"?
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 11:12 am EST

report this comment



McClaughry needs an editor:

His 4th paragraph should read

Since then the Massachusetts, California and Connecticut supreme courts have held, BASED ON AMPLE state constitutional support, that same-sex couples have a right to participate in marriage on the same basis as opposite-sex couples.
-- Posted by Kevin Moss on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 11:09 am EST

report this comment



NO majority population should dictate basic rights to any minority.

If we let the voters decide whether or not there should be gay marriage, what's next? A majority decides to enslave another minority?

People get real and accept the fact that gay marriage is coming and it will pass.

Have a nice day!
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 10:58 am EST

report this comment



Gay Marriage supporters are, I believe making a huge tactical blunder by forcing this issue on already edgy Vermonters at the present time. Add to this the deviousness of their main argument (Vermont Civil rights , when it will NOT affect Civil Rights in Vermont).

Playing by the same rulebook,Gay Marriage opponents should find two men and a woman, or two women and a man, and have them apply for a marriage license..this will of course be denied, opening a wedge for a suit, based on the Baker case...using the faulty logic of that decision , the court is almost ethically bound to approve multiple partner marriages, or state marriages can be restricted to two people. This will accomplish the objective of keeping marriage between one man and one woman the law in Vermont, one way or another.
1) If marriage can be restricted to two people, the door is wide open to restrict it to the traditional male-female roles as it is now.Civil unions stay in effect.
2)If the court decides to allow polygamy, it will outrage enough moderate Vermonters to the point the legislature can be pushed into amending the Vermont Constitution to define marriage as between one man and one woman.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 10:31 am EST

report this comment



Actually, Malcom, there WILL be an open vote on marriage for all. It will take place in our beautiful capitol building, carried out in public by our duly elected legislators who will vote the will of the majority of Vermonters.

You guys only THINK you are the majority because you carry on incestuous conversations in your homes and barrooms.

You know: "birds of a feather?"
-- Posted by Notta Bushman on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 9:21 am EST

report this comment



Voting on a lottery (a non-living system with no rights of its own) is a very different matter than voting on the rights of sovereign human beings. I'm glad to live in a state where, unlike California, whose constitution is much too easily amended, we do NOT subject the rights of living beings to any sort of vote.

When the federal government declared interracial marriage bans unconstitutional, most states had laws prohibiting interracial marriage. Those discriminatory laws and the will of voters didn't make the bans any more correct. The federal government recognized this and stepped in to say that popular will cannot oppress a minority's rights. So it is with Marriage Equality for LGBT individuals and their many heterosexual family members and friends also affected by their loved ones' shabby treatment under the law.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 9:13 am EST

report this comment



Putting this subject to an open vote is NOT going to happen. It would be the right thing to do but the proponents of gay marriage know only too well that it would go down in flames so they need to cram it down our throats through the legislative process. They well know that the Liberal dominated legislature will make it law and once again we will have "Rule of the Minority". It ain't right, but if all the laws in the USA had been put up to a national vote we would do nothing but vote and the US Code would weigh about 5 lbs instead of the seveal tons it now is. To read all the laws concerning guns would take a lifetime and one would find thousands of contradictions in that portion of the laws as they exist today. No wonder the lawyers and politicians can rob us blind.
-- Posted by Malcolm Jensen on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 6:37 am EST

report this comment



John McClaughry has nothing different to say on the subject of marriage than any other opponents of equality. It's very important to note that he doesn't even attempt to argue that civil unions have harmed Vermont or Vermonters in any way or that allowing same-sex couples to marry would do any harm.

He in effect concedes that it would not, asking "how does allowing us,loving and committed (gay) couples to enjoy the status and benefits of marriage, undermine the institution of marriage?" and then offering no answer whatever but skipping straight to the red herring that if we allow same-sex couples to marry we'll have to allow every other conceivable combination of individuals to marry. This is just the old non-argument number 2 (after "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve").

Like many other nay-sayers, McClaughry invents his own "purposes" of marriage, ignoring the fact that the state does not claim any of them. "Marriage, so the argument goes..." he says: whose argument? The one he himself has fabricated.

And then he comes down to the tired old "let the people vote" mantra,with the one new twist of comparing the civil right of marriage to the state lottery.

McClaughry needn't worry. Every legislator knows very well how his or her constituents feel about marriage equality. The legislators were just elected in November and they are fully qualified and empowered to make this important decision to move Vermont forward.
-- Posted by Judy Olinick on Fri, Mar 13, 2009, 5:49 am EST

report this comment



Not at all, AK, but the Herald is under no obligation to publish all the swill they get each day and I'm sure they toss plenty of it. Maybe if Johnny M PAID for his silliness and had a black wreath printed around his swill as a caution to those of us who stumble upon that crap I would think differently about it. It's not censorship, Allen. It's good business to edit (and reject) the worst of the worst that comes in.

By the way, Allen, are you a member of the EAI or have you guys been sworn to secrecy under pain of a good paddling by Johnny Boy himself? Sort of like Skull & Bones only under less prestigious conditions and geared toward NEK folks? Never mind.
-- Posted by Notta Bushman on Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 11:29 pm EST

report this comment



So in other words, Notta and William, you are all in favor of "freedom of speech" just so long as it is speech you happen to condone. Otherwise censor the bastards!

How very liberal of you!
-- Posted by Allen Kuusela on Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 1:49 pm EST

report this comment



I agree with Notta. For too long, the Herald has provided this blowhard, John McClaughry, with a private soapbox from which to proclaim his personal opinions. As she points out, the EAI is not some major think tank, but is nothing but a way for him to magnify his tiny image.

It's time for this to end. Please.
.
-- Posted by William Jefferys on Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 12:07 pm EST

report this comment



The year is 2009, society is different now. And, as for others applying for marriage rites, let them-we'll argue it out in the courts. Personally, I don't care who marries whom, six people can marry each other if they like, why should I care? As long as it involves consenting adults, goody for them. May they all live happily ever after. The bible is less and less relevant to modern life as it deserves. What can those who lived thousands of years ago in societies that condoned slavery, domestic violence, arranged marriages of children, and patriarchal rule have to contribute to what humanity wants to do now? Very little, most of it is pretty bad.

As long as we raise human beings to respect one another, to defend the weak and helpless and be ethical in our dealings, we can throw out the rest of the blather about morality and religious guidelines. It's only used to repress whatever group the patriarchs feel threatened by anyway.
-- Posted by Lilly on Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 11:44 am EST

report this comment



John McC does it again! Why does a great newspaper like the Rutland Herald continue to indulge the fantasies of self-importance this man suffers from by publishing his garbage? Nobody but the secret-society of the "Ethan Allen Institute" actually listens to him, RH. And the EAI is comprised of President Johnny and (maybe) his souse.

The 1950s are past, JM. Over, Done. Gone. Caputo! Do you really think this still applies? Marriage is about "reining in horny young males by linking approved sex to a serious and long-lasting social commitment." So, horny young females get no credit for extra-marital daliances? Or were you referring to onanism? No wonder your columns make such good subjects for aspiring comedians.

John, the times have left folks like you so far behind that you should really hang up your quill, pour out your inkwell, toss away your blotter and retire to a pond where you can fish and occasionally put bait on the hook. You remember how to put bait on a hook don't you, John? Good boy. Time for your nap.
-- Posted by Notta Bushman on Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 9:42 am EST

report this comment


You must be logged in to leave a comment. Register | Log In

Logout