RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

Keep state land ATV-free



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Published: June 16, 2009

I am not against people riding ATVs by any means — I think there are many reasons to ride them for both recreation and for work on the farm and in the woods. However, given that about 90 percent of Vermont is privately owned, does it make sense to open up our relatively few acres of publicly owned land to a use that is basically incompatible to other forms of recreation such as hiking, camping, bird watching? I think not.

Anyone who has been in the woods can easily see the lasting damage caused by these machines, whether they are riding legally or illegally, in wet or dry weather. Anyone who doubts this should just come to Worcester to see the damage caused by ATVs.

I do not see the point in exposing our state parks and wildlife areas to the environmental damage caused by riding ATVs. The state's recent proposal to open up state-owned land to ATV use is ill-conceived and should be stopped.

Please tell the Agency of Natural Resources that you oppose this expensive and environmentally damaging proposal. Comments can be submitted to ANR by e-mail to warren.coleman@state.vt.us by June 22.

PETER STERLING

Worcester








READER COMMENTS


Whose land are you on Mountain Boy? Always someone else's, as I thought, no! wait you are going to tell us you own 1000 acres, then Hey! I have no problem ride on your own land as much as you want and stay off of ours.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 7:21 pm EST

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Lets see, i have picked up bags of trash left on Bald over the years from Hikers, Slobs are every where is my point. Woods are miles deep in many places and it helps me get out there when i don't feel like walking 5 miles, a atvs helps the legs last a little longer, you still work hard to get a deer after you get off the atv unless you are having a real lucky day which happens once in a blue moon! They are not trying to open up everything to atvs, just trails that are in place, like snowmobile trails, not everyones back yard trail! Older people deserve the right to enjoy the outdoors on a atv! There fun, let people enjoy it!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 6:59 pm EST

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As far as being seen walking or riding. Animals are startled by us walking because we are the only animal in the forest that walks UPRIGHT. If you have problems getting close to wildlfe walking, then put your smoke out, don't wear After Shave, Perfume, dedordant and see if you can walk a little more graceful.
I don't have any doubt that you can be on top of an animal before they see you. I work in an area where we are chasing ATVs out all of the time and more so during Deer Season, because the ATV is an Unfair Advantage. For you real sportsmen out there try Fair Chase. I have been a hunter all of my life and I do the Fair Chase. It makes me sick to listen to some people talk about their Game as if it was just a piece of litter. The Real Hunters don't even care where they shoot it and most won't even waste time tracking. I guess to some of you that is so Cool. I have also taken every animal with a head Shot and believe in One Shot, One Kill or rather One shot and a Clean Kill. Then there are those who have 18X Power Scopes, but can't hit the broadside of a barn with or without it. They have GPS, ATVs, Walkie Talkies and a 1/5 of Whisky and call themselves real hunters. ROFLMAO I've posted my land because of these real hunters and I was always against posting, until I have found gates left open, fences runned over, cars parked in my berry bushes, atv destroyed land and bullet holes in my signs and sugar house. Am I Tree Hugger? Nope! just a ticked off Property owner. ATVs are not welcome on my land and will never will be again. I have it open to hikers and the such and I have the Catamount Trail that runs right through it. Hikers have never damaged anything of mine, just the ATVs and Real Hunters. ROFLMAO
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 6:12 pm EST

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Leonard

My lawn mower doesn't leave tracks either, but we aren't talking about 600 miles traveled over a 4 year period (how boring, why didn't you buy a SMALL Lawn Tractor) we are talking about many ATVs per day. Catch up, we will wait a little while for you. We are talking about from slow to very fast with all kinds of different tires and all kinds of different drivers, from the old and slow to the young and show off.

I vote NO! and I will never open my land again.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 5:59 pm EST

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I have an ATV, the last 4 years I have put 600 miles on it, most of them on my 3/4 acer city lot doing chores around my yard. If you look at my lawn you could never tell that a atv has been on it. Open it up. Share and share alike. what is good for some is good for all. Give me liberty or give me death. I would be willing to pay to be able to play. Times are changing, get on board or get out. Some of these post make me laugh
:)
-- Posted by Leonard Vest on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 3:06 pm EST

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There are three undeniable points for continuing prohibited ATV use on public lands.

1.) ATV use in VT has already caused extensive, permanent damage to fragile terrain.

2.) There is not now, nor is there proposed any authority for enforcing ATV use of public land. Police will not respond to complaints. Granting limited access will initiate a unmanageable, free-for-all.

3.) ATV riders have no "right" to public land use. They foolishly purchased expensive toys knowing they were only allowed on private land. If permitted, then motocross and all other off road vehicles must have equal access.
-- Posted by Major Taxpayer on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:46 am EST

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Mountainboy is right. I lived in an apple orchard for years. I would drive my 4-wheeler all over the orchard and surrounding forrest. As long as I did not stop and attempt to get off the 4-wheeler the deer simply stood looking. Same as when I was on the tractor.
-- Posted by Frank Westcott on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:26 am EST

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I have never ridden an ATV but I'm sure it is correct that deer are not especially afraid of them. That is simply a biological reality-- evolution has not (yet?) given wildlife an instinctive concern for vehicles. But they DO very much have an instinct for humans walking through the woods. That is a biological call for alarm for them.

This is probably why you never bump into a deer when walking, but might run into one on a road.

I don't like ATVs any more than other enviros (which I consider myself); but respect for others prompts me to be tolerant. Unlike VT liberals, I do NOT feel that it is my "right" to force my own opinions on the people around me.
..
-- Posted by mark on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 9:59 am EST

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None None, You don't know squat, i spend hours a week in the woods hiking, biking, atv riding and hunting ALL deer season for the last 35 years,so YOUR line to me shows me your nothing but a BIG BAG of WIND!Try sneaking up on a deer walking and getting close, probably not happening, drive by them on atv and they stand and look at you most times, it has happened more times then i can count tree hugger.I hope the next time your feet come off the ground you fall on your thick skull, it might smarten you up know it all of nothing! Get a real life(hd)!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 7:14 am EST

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I say let the atv folks prove themselves. if the trails get ripped up then shut them down. they too are tax payers that support these PUBLIC LANDS. so let them have their chance to make or break their point.
-- Posted by John Smith on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 11:49 pm EST

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Mounbtain Boy

You must really think I was born yesterday, my feet are way off the ground after your last post. You get closer is a pile of B.S. unless you startled them. Cars get closer to them to just as they HIT them. ROFLMA that was th emost ridiculous post I have yet to read by you.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 9:31 pm EST

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I get closer to deer,moose,grouse over the years on a atv than in the woods walking, so you can throw out they scare wildlife, thats just not the case at all, they just stand and watch you drive by or if you and stop look at them, if you get off, see ya!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 7:09 pm EST

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SUVs have NO reason but ATVS do? What rock did you run into?

What is the reason for ATVs?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 6:05 pm EST

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Land owners opened their land for Snowmobiles, because come spring all sign that Snowmobiles were ever there ha smelted away. Land owners do not welcome the destruction of ATVs and I for one will never open mine to them again.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 6:02 pm EST

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People buy ATVs not to ride on their own property but to ride on someone elses. The ATVs tear up land, harass wildlife and are not welcome in the serenty of the wilderness. Go to the Midwest and ride your hearts out, Vermont is not the type of state nor does it if the type of terrain that take the abuse of ATVs. I have land that has been destroyed by ATVs and there is no doubt many people are responsible, unfortunately too many more are not.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 6:00 pm EST

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4-Wheeler gas consumption was around 4-10 gallons for the whole weekend. Depending on the machine it may be less or slightly more. They really do not go through much gas.

I'm guessing snowmobiles would be near 10-20 gallons depending on the machine. Racing 2-stroke triples can use considerably more.

The boat, mile per mile, is insanely higher in gas consumption. If you were to continually drive it like you would a snowmobile/4-wheeler. It could go through 20-40 gallons in a weekend easily. More if it's a 6 or 8 cylinder. My calculations were on my 4 cylinder 3.0 ltr.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 3:58 pm EST

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I hope no one is suggesting same trails for hikers and ATM/Snowmobilers. Too dangerous. Snowmobile trails are reserved in the winter for snowmobilers, anyone thinking of x-crossing skiing on those trails is taking their life in their hands. The same would be true of hikers and ATV'ers. I suggest designated reserved trails maintained by clubs like the snowmobilers do as a solution. Vermont is beginning to act more and more like Jersey. Can't do anything unless your filthy rich. Yuk.
-- Posted by Curious gt on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 3:52 pm EST

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I see nothing wrong with making interconnecting trails through this land. It doesn't ALL have to be open to ATV's.

But let's see. Do hiker's walk off trail? Ofcourse they do. Will they get mad when they see ATV's off their trails. Ofcourse they will. They assume they do not harm the land at all. Even though many forest fires are the result of hiker/campers. (Not saying that ATV's have never been a cause for it. Just shedding some light on truth.)

ATV's can be driven, in such a way, to avoid damage to land even when not on a trail. It's all up to the driver. (Obviously, the land conditions and the machine in question will affect this. 4WD, 2WD, racing setup, tire condition, and many other machine/weather factors.)

But seriously, where is the fun in just riding around? Who wants to never have fun and never tear up some land? Getting muddy/dirty is the whole reason I went out. It was fun.

ATV's should be given a place to have fun. I like to have fun. ATV riders should be told, by signs, where/when to tread lightly. If they are ever caught disobeying this. Their privilege can and will be taken away. It can be as simple as this. They will have their plates/tags taken and will NOT be able to renew them for a given time.

As for those talking about GAS consumption.

I've had a snowmobile, boat, and a 4-wheeler.

By far, boats use up the most gas. A LOT more gas. Tons more. I spent most of my time at anchor enjoying the day with friends and I would still use up 15-30 gallons in a single weekend. I wonder how many people here complaining about 4-wheeler gas consumption own boats! (By the way, this is without tubing, skiing, knee-boarding, and other towables. These fun towables will add a lot of gas consumption.)

Snowmobile used up a considerable amount of gas too. More than my 4-wheeler*.

*But this is where it can get tricky. Depending on the snowmobile and the 4-wheeler it may differ. Riders vs Racers. They do make 4 stroke snowmobile engines now that do well on gas. And are better for the environment then their cousins. (The triple, 2-stroke engines used a lot of gas, oil, and fouled spark plugs often.)

But if you were to compare equal machines driven equally. I believe the snowmobile will use more gas. Then again, would depend on 4WD, 2WD .. 2stroke or 4 stroke... racing or riding setup.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 3:05 pm EST

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I am not a big fan of ATVs because I really like the quiet. When I go into the woods, I am there to see and hear the wildlife, ATVs have a tendency to disrupt the surrounding wildlife, thus defeating the purpose of my being there in the first place. I certainly would not want a law made against them. The way that I have found around this problem is to choose the times that I am out more carefully. If I go out for the quiet and there are a lot of ATVs around at the time, I will leave and come back later. It seems like it should be simple enough to work out some sort of agreement where there is quiet time for hikers and have at it time for the ATV-ers.
Also, if someone is using an ATV because of a disability, they should be exempt from restrictions.
-- Posted by Comfy Anon on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 2:42 pm EST

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The last thing this state needs to do is further stifle activities for people who live here. There is already a steady decline in the number of young adults living here and more limits on recreational activity will not help, and limiting the business of ATV sales and repair in VT would be devastating to those business owners.
Anybody complaining about hiking on a muddy trail should be reminded that this is VERMONT, and we have mud, yes we even have a season named after it! You're HIKING for crying out loud, are you afraid of getting dirty?! Walk around it, or get out of the woods!!
Designate trails for ATVs on state land and I'm sure ATV users would reciprocate and show respect for the area. Outlaw their use, and the only people riding ATVs thru state land will be the ones who won't care about what you think.
-- Posted by concerned citizen on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 1:51 pm EST

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I would be happy if we could get a mandatory muffler law for ATV's. I am sick of listening to them around ride around at all hours
-- Posted by Mark Wilson on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 1:41 pm EST

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what about snowmobiles? Not only do these vehicles burn oil to run, the season lasts all of 3 months if you are LUCKY and how many thousands of miles of trails do they have? You could walk up and down these trails all day finding garbage and broken down 30 year old snowmobiles and crap laying all over because you can get a snowmobile for 300 dollars. Yet I dont hear any of you complaining about them, and the loud annoying exhaust that you can hear a mile away that sounds like crap no matter what you do to it. ATVs are quiet for the most part, most are 4 stroke and like the rest of these guys say, they dont burn up gas like the SUVs you see going down the road with a stupid ass soccer mom and her purse. Or the guy with the big Chevy 2500 V8 and the 5 inch lift and cat back system for what? To haul a couple bags of garbage and MAYBE bring the lawnmower in to the shop, all of which could be done in a small pickup.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:56 am EST

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Samuel Krans's comment is right on: If ATV riders are paying taxes too, why are others trying to deny them access to the same land?

"My Comment" also brings up VT's ugly yellow secret: That a Leftist society known for it's "inclusion" and "tolerance" wants to keep you the hell of its private land.
..
-- Posted by mark on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:31 am EST

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There should be a middle ground and access for ATV's users within our thousands or millions of forest acreage. Everyone should have the ability to use our forest lands, snowmobilers, hikers, and ATVs. A certain amount of trails should be dedicated for this use, afterall, they pay taxes too and should be able to enjoy riding the trails. It's a billion dollar industry, designate certain trails for their use. This is a no brainer.
-- Posted by Curious gt on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:21 am EST

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Private four-wheeler accessible land has diminished in the past ten years because people are worried about insurance issues and the well-being of their land. We all pay taxes, therefore we should be able to use the land as we see fit. Don't worry about the little CO2 emissions from these machines, worry about the gigantic SUVs that are STILL being driven today with no justifiable reason.
And if you disagree, kindly return to Connecticut.
-- Posted by Samuel Krans on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:08 am EST

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Vermont, Land of the worlds biggest yellow "POST IT NOTES"
It sucks that you see these nailed to tress along every road...even in the middle of the woods. The property that borders mine was sold to (you guess) (your right) and they
immediately put those post it notes spaced apart by 25 feet all around the property, which is many acres. I enjoyed seeing them put the damn things on the trees on my land too.
So, it is a tough question on the atv access....It is to bad there is not alot of state or national owned forest (in some places of the state).
-- Posted by My Comment on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 9:36 am EST

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Notta and Lem, you 2 should go boating together without the plug in the boat, and don't forget your oars! Halfwit Liberals! Great comments Mark, all so true!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 7:27 am EST

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This issue highlights the "my way or the highway" mentality of VT liberals. All use of state land impacts nature. Even hiking through the woods barefoot would disrupt the animals living there, just in a lesser degree.

So liberals don't like ATVs. I don't either. But isn't "tolerance" about accepting things you don't like? Or is "tolerance" merely accepting things that you already approve of?

How many liberals live in houses, built upon once pristine animal habitat?

How many VT liberals drive around in SUVs, even though they eagerly profess concern for carbon emissions and the greenhouse effect?

How many liberals drive down mile after mile of asphalt highways that shred the natural countryside?

Ever notice that the liberal draws the line just beyond his OWN behavior? He naturally presumes that his own activity is acceptable, and that he himself represents the limit of what should be acceptable.

How can VT liberals be taken seriously?
-- Posted by mark on Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 12:34 am EST

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Geez Notta,,, first you are going to deport ALL Republicans to some camp you are building for them in Mississippi. Now you want to deport all ATV riders to New Hampshire. By the time you are left, who is going to be left? You, Bernie, Shumlin and Shap?
-- Posted by Allen Kuusela on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 7:21 pm EST

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This debate is an intresting one. to let atv's on state land, or not to let atv's on state land. dont a majority of us hikers and atv riders that are in this debate live in this state. ah yup. , dont we all share the burden in paying taxes together to keep this state land in great shape. ah yup. so if atv folks pay taxes that maintain the state forests then dont they have a right to these state lands just as much as any hiker. ah yup. so what gives. I own, and have access to hundreds of acres in Rutland county. and there are some trails that havent been used in 4 to 5 years that no longer show any signs of atv use. it looks like a foot path. ( and hikers dont use that unoriginal line like " if you have sooo much land then ride at home " I like a differance in scenery ). and no offence to horse people but a horse ride on soft ground creates more damage than an atv. ( as long as its not a meathead riding the atv. ) so share the woods. tax paying atv riders have put in more then their 2 cents worth in keeping the state forest accessable for hikers. So how about the hikers understand that the atv folks need to have a place where they can enjoy state land the way they see fit. fair is fair. and if Vermont plays it right they could set up trails that are like Canada's atv / snowmobile trail networks. the state would make revenue from atv sales tax, registrations. and atv riders would spend money in towns where they are riding through or staying the night at. Just like Hikers do.
-- Posted by John Smith on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 11:43 am EST

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it is no different then the start and end to snowmobile season on trails and they are well maintained. Not compatible to bird watching? hm I watch birds from my house all day long.
I think this should be allowed. I personally would take advantage of this and I would go and use our ATV go get out in the woods to enjoy it. I would be able to have access to go hunting and do family things with my kids, who are hunters as I am too. I am only 38 and can not get out into the woods due to a medical condition so I would love to take this opportunity and go on trails with my kids and take my sons that are hunter and take them out. I can't do that unless i have the help of ATV Also 2 of my 4 boys might also have this disease and hopefully by having these trails open to ATV's they would benefit from it later on in life.
if the ATV's stay on the trails then it would not ruin the woods. they aren't asking to cut down tress, which tress cutting down can be used for several things, but that is another topic, there is no environmental damage done to the woods by ATV yeah they leave tracks mark but so do people when they walk on muddy trails.
I will write to this Warren in full SUPPORT of the ATV's
-- Posted by Michelle Burnett on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 8:39 am EST

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Right on, Lem! Let's deport all ATVs and their terrorist riders to New Hampshire, where they can live free and ... whatever.
-- Posted by Notta Bushman on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 8:25 am EST

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ATV'ers = eco terrorism
With all the family members lost for our selfish overconsumption of oil, to waste it riding around on gasoline powered toy stuff is reprehensible.
-- Posted by Lem Mason on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 7:00 am EST

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Have you ever looked at a logging operation Peter, thats damage, but needs to be done. It's not like they will be making new trails for atvs, existing ones will be used to connect to trails that are legal to ride on and it won't be on hiking trails either. Stop being selfish, many people are older and enjoy the outdoors but the legs get old and atvs let them get outside and enjoy our state! IT'S TIME TO OPEN IT UP TO EVERYONE! Plus our State would benefit financialy to, just like gay marriage(bfd)!
-- Posted by Mountain Boy on Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 6:46 am EST

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