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Board, teachers in contract deadlock



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By PATRICIA MINICHIELLO Staff Writer - Published: July 10, 2009

With no contract to speak of, the Rutland Town School Board and teachers have declared negotiations at an impasse after requests by teachers for pay increases have been repeatedly denied.

Stacy Chapman, chairman of the School Board, said teachers are still requesting a 4 percent increase on the base for one year, a move the board opposes.

"As the board, we made it clear what our position is in terms of raises — there should not be any. We just think that the best thing for everyone is to put this behind us and move forward with education," Chapman said.

On Wednesday, a date for mediation between the School Board and teachers was set for Aug. 11. By Thursday, that date was off the table. Sean Leach of the Vermont-National Education Association, who is representing the teachers, had a scheduling conflict and Ira Lobel, mediator for the negations, is out of the country.

Chapman said the lag time in setting up this negotiation is really disappointing.

"We are ready to roll. We just feel that the delay is really not good for the school or the town in the sense that we don't want people to get discouraged with the fact that we do not have a contract." Chapman said.

Once a date for mediation has been set, it will likely take place at Rutland Town School in the library. It is unclear whether the mediation session will be open to the public.

New superintendent for the Rutland Central Supervisory Union, Wendy Savery, said it is not uncommon for teachers contract negotiations to go into September.

"In my previous experience, a lot of districts are having difficulty in the negotiation process," Savery said. She also said it's her understanding the contract that expired on June 30 stays in place. "So we are operating under the previous master agreement until a new one is arrived at," Savery said.

Chapman said mediation was a mutually agreed upon next step.

"We received word from the union representative that as far as they were concerned, we were at an impasse and we agree," Chapman said.

Chapman said one of his concerns with the teachers asking for a 4 percent increase on the base is how this will affect the school budget vote in March 2010.

"We don't want that to have an adverse effect on the budget," Chapman said.

patricia.minichiello@rutlandherald.com








READER COMMENTS


The answer shoud be that the teachers can have their raise as long as the budget total remains the same. This places the onus on the superintendent and her "administration" to make choices and prioritize. Does she value her teachers appropriately or is she afraid to make such a tough call?

It's a classic case of a weak super and enabling school board not even attempting to solve the problems within the bounds of their own authority.

They'd rather make taxpayers and voters look like the culprits here.

Shameful behavior.
-- Posted by Bill O. Rights on Thu, Jul 16, 2009, 5:05 pm EST

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Just sayin

You can start by ignoring them, if they bother you so much.

You missed the point. When two of my kids saved to go to France, they had an Interrupter and their group visited a winery. None were 18 but a winery was on the list of places to see. For whose benefit?

The teachers in my time would stay after school and help you. Would stay after class, would miss their lunch to help you. I do not see that now, to get help for my kids was like pulling teeth.

I do not see where the field has improved at all. They got their smaller classes and for what? There is sometimes two and three teachers to a class and yet kids still fail or ar epushed through. When was th elast time you heard of a student being held back? What si this alternate education where buses pick them up and they go to jobs? We had votec schools, like the one in St Johnsbury.
SATs ar enot revelant? What are you trying to defend? Sounds to me like you may be a teacher yourself and trying to smoke screen your failures. Or maybe you rather not admit that many of the schools in Vermont don't make it.

Vermont ranks 2nd in cost of Education and we are about 44th for Quality. Now whose is to blame for that, teachers of 30 years ago?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jul 15, 2009, 12:09 am EST

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None none-, when you post those long winded responses I don't know where to start!! I have not seen anyone post that "teachers are better" so relax. Interesting that I see just the opposite today than I saw 30 years ago. Back then, it was simply death rows and dittos and now most teachers deliver multi-sensory instruction in cooperative groups and differentiate the content and outcomes. The field has improved greatly in 30 years. Visiting a winery is typically not high on the priority list of a high school trip abroad, at least not the administration! I agree with you about the SAT scores- they have basically flatlined since 1972. It's just not a relevant test anymore and schools are less apt to teach to that particular test. Many colleges are moving away from SAT scores. 30 percent of colleges and universities have made at least some standardized test optional for some or all students. As someone who taught for 24 years, it still saddens me to read that people still believe the "6 hours a day, 9 months a year" crap. I'm too tired to defend it again!!
-- Posted by just sayin on Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 10:34 pm EST

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Education is Vermont is like a BIG HOLE, we can throw our money into either and expect the same result.

I do not put teachers on any pedestal regardless if they themselves do. There are many jobs as important or moreso and don't get the Hero advertising on TV. So enough of the B.S. that teachers are better, they are not.

When I compare the teachers of today verus the teachers of 30 years ago, I see a total failure today. I do not see teachers willing to stay afer school and help a student one on one. I do not see teachers who are even willing to help a child during class time. I see a creation of Block Scheduling that will leave students lacking core cubjects for as many as 3 semisters because it is easier on the teacher. I do not see teachers patrolling the halls and being held accountable for the property that is entrusted to them. I see trips to France that are free to the teachers and costly to the student and they don't even speak French while there and visit a winery. I see taxpayer paid vacations for these trips to Spain, and France and the where evers, nice benie. I see failure on the SATs an yet I hear teachers come up with excuse after excuse why the no child left behind is bad, hm m m I think it is good if it is going to make the teachers work and earn their money. I see teachers who use the same test, year after year and guard the answer sheets because they don't know how to make up a new test. I hear them complain about having to tak ework home, well they should, they work less than a 6 hour day and get 3 months off and seem to have all of their Conventions and meetings scheduled for AFTER the mini vacations and not during. I see teachers who care and would die for their students, but I see the bulk of them as worthless individuals who are there only for the benefits.

I still wonder why there is a Union that stands between the taxpayer and the one who gets the taxpayer's money. I wonder why a school needs 3 Principles and what does a Superintendent do that requires so many hire hands and a huge budget? Why are the classrooms so smelly and in such disorder? Why is it when you drive by an Elementary school that has only 250 kids you see 85 cars parked in the parking lot and that is every single day?

No! I am not getting down on teachers, what I am doing is pointing out that they are failing and they are covering their failures with lame excuses and blaming this and blaming that. They need to police their own ranks and bring back the integerty that has long been lost. School Spirit? what school anywhere in Rutland area has School Spirit? I mean REAL School Spirit.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 6:24 pm EST

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The union reps are trying to justify their pay and the dues the teachers pay. Unions are nothing short of a form of employment security insurance, they are a business supplying a service for which the union workers are well compensated for. If the union did not demand improved salaries and benefits every year then the workers would start wondering what they were paying for. Luckily for the service industries like education and health their jobs cannot be outsourced or undercut by foreign competition. I read an interesting statistic recently, the average salary of a government employee is $72,000 per year, the average salary of a non-government employee is $38,000. And in response to an earlier post by Juliet I think it's ridiculous to keep every small town school open. Local control is a joke, the average parent has no qualifications to decide what should be taught or how. If teachers want more pay they have to decide how to more with less like every other industry does. Year round schools with tri-semesters where a students school year is two semesters. Consolodate, reduce and compete like normal businesses have to do, the old 186 days a year of teaching and school needs to change and be brought into the 21st century.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 6:04 pm EST

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With all do respect to the fine educators here and elsewhere, anybody, and I do mean anybody, that has a job in this economy, to say nothing of health care and a defined benefit retirement plan is damn lucky. I don't care how much education, experience, or other value you think you possess, now is NOT the time to be looking for a raise. If your negotiators were smart, they'd backload an agreement contingent on the recession ending and some increase in state GDP or job growth number in the future. In fact, I think our good teachers are smart enough to know that and I wonder whether Dwayne is really a representative of them. I think he might just be a flame-thrower!
-- Posted by Juliet Chien on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 10:44 pm EST

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Nice to see the conversation back on track and I can feel better knowing that my post earlier about Dwayne NOT being a teacher has been verified- SURPRISED???? "That Guy" you are right on with your posts- except the administrator one. I think the percentage I have encountered runs about 20% excellent, 60% average, 20% how the heck did HE/SHE get that job!! No money this year Rutland Town- be patient and see what happens next year. Heard an interesting fact on NPR today- the overall unemployment rate is about 11% but if you disaggregate the data you find that blue collar workers are at 18% while professional/technical is more like 4%. Joe Average gets the raw end of the deal once again.
-- Posted by just sayin on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 10:29 pm EST

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"1. Teaching is largely an underpaid, underappreciated career than is vitally important to the future of our country."
Teachers salaries are given for working about 85% of a year, and since the average salary for a Vermont teacher is about $46,000 a part time job during the summer would boost the yearly income greatly. This percentage includes an extreme amount of vacation time not only during the school year but the summertime as well. Generous amounts of vacation time could be considered appreciation. Would you like a cookie every time a child you're teaching does well? THATS YOUR JOB.
Vermont teachers are high quality, I have no arguments against that.
"3. The majority of teachers deserve nearly every chance at better compensation that they can get."
Vermont teachers deserve compensation where it is due. The sole act of being a teacher does not deserve a raise. Show me increasing test scores, increasing college attendance, any sign of student improvement.
-- Posted by Samuel Krans on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 8:17 pm EST

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Before I go just know this....... Every time you shoot down a school budget, don't tell no one this but.... It cost more money every time you shoot one down. And it's pretty funny you are going to shoot down a school budget because of some duffus you thought was a teacher, who never said he was, and was proven right all along. I'd like to hear you tell the school board that one! I'll be thinking of you guys when you pump my gas next time!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:49 pm EST

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Hey Dwayne, news flash, you are still a doofus and so is your friend. People who make up imaginary identities on internet message boards are losers. That would be you, Dwayne. For the first time in my life next March I will vote against the school budget because of you and your friend. And I will suggest to my relatives, neighbors and friends that they do the same. Good job, Dwayne.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:40 pm EST

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OH MY GOD! This is too funny! I never not once said I was a teacher, go back and look! My friend who does work for a school said anybody who does not work for a school system are jealous of what teachers do make because it's public. People who don't get benefits like they do get pissy about it. You guys trying to bring people down to your level. And he's laughing right now because of all of your posts pretty much proved that. He liked the ones where you mock my English and I wouldn't send your kids to my class! Blah blah blah!

I didn't think he was right and I told him so, but this just proves he's right! So now I gotta go eat crow! Later kids it's been fun!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:35 pm EST

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Wow. There are some genuine space cadets phoning in on this one. Tell you what: if any of the anti-teacher posters here were educated in Rutland Town, you might want to throw THAT little piece of information into every other post. It's the most damning thing you could EVER write about the quality of Rutland Town's educational system.

OK, back to the part where I toss in my two cents. Here goes:

1. Teaching is largely an underpaid, underappreciated career than is vitally important to the future of our country.

2. Teachers in this state are, by and large, excellent. (Administrators? Not so much. I've never seen a bigger collection of "how the heck did HE end up with that job?" losers in my life.)

3. The majority of teachers deserve nearly every chance at better compensation that they can get.

HOWEVER...

4. We're in the middle of the worst recession in decades, and now is NOT the time to ask for good-sized guaranteed pay raises years out in advance. It... just... isn't. Save it for another time. Politically, socially, economically... they're doing themselves no favors. C'mon, guys. Give this up and live to fight another day.
-- Posted by That Guy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:14 pm EST

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There are a lot of things I might do tonight, but revealing any information about myself to a doofus like you is surely not one of them.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:10 pm EST

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Ok it's unemployed then.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:04 pm EST

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Dwayne: "Your" is the possessive form of the word "you". In your sentence you should use "you're" or "you are". Either would be acceptable, but "your" only provides further proof of stupidity.

For gosh sake, please stop. You are embarrassing yourself.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:03 pm EST

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So I take it your unemployed or you don't want to answer. Which one is it I wonder?
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 6:44 pm EST

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John Smith: Thanks for your help in trying to get Dwayne to see that he should just shut up. This guy is a slow traveller. Does he think he is helping the teacher's cause? Next time I go to vote on a school budget I will be thinking, "Dwayne Johnson".
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 5:30 pm EST

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Let's try this one more time, Dwayne. The possessive form of "they" is "their". For a teacher you are a very slow learner. It must really frustrate your students.

I am not adamant about what other people make but I am adamant that people who make their living from tax dollars need to understand the difficult nature of our current economy. With so many of your neighbors suffering reduction in hours and benefits, layoffs, and foreclosures, it is unbelieveably insensitive for you to be asking taxpayers to give you a raise.

I had many good teachers but I also had some who were total idiots. It seems the idiots are increasing in number since I was in school.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 5:25 pm EST

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Hey Dwayne, are the ball players getting their salaries paid from tax payer funds. uuummm NO. its the ball park that was payed for partly with tax money. but thats besides the point. its really silly how you try to compare teachers tax funded salaries to MLB players pay. thants not even apples and oranges that more like apples and elephants. And are you really that arrogant to Rutland Towns tax payers. wow Dwayne. how do you perceive your taxpayers that put money in the towns accounts so that you get a pay check? seriously you are really talking down to the folks who pay the bills, the folks that are your boss, YOUR COSTOMER. I really think you should stop while you are ahead of the game. ( no pun intended ) like I said in my last post, ( and didnt get any feed back from you ). MAD TAX PAYERS = SCHOOL BUDGETS NOT PASSED. keep it up. your doing a great job aggrivating your tax payers. and representing your fellow teachers. if there is a Rutland Town teacher who has a problem with Dwanyne's comments and additude twords your tax payers please put in some feed back to this guy. he really needs to get the hint.
-- Posted by John Smith on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 5:16 pm EST

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For somebody who is very adamant on what other people should be making at there jobs I was wondering where your was. You know so I can return the favor!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 4:17 pm EST

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Dwayne: That is called a "run on sentence". I believe that was covered in sixth grade grammar.

I didn't say where I worked. What's your point? Are you messing with me? That doesn't seem very appropriate for one of VT's finest teachers.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 3:35 pm EST

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SC Boy where did you say work again?
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 3:07 pm EST

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Dwayne: I have an answer. Teachers need to stop thinking they are somehow special and join the rest of middle class America in shouldering the burdens of this economy.

And you, in particular, should return 50% of your pay because you are obviously imcompetent. Your command of the written language is very poor. Your thought processes, revealed in your writing, are convoluted. I would not let one of my children within a mile of your classroom. If one of my children did happen to get you as a teacher, I would be the Principal's worst nightmare.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 11:38 am EST

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Teachers' pay should be performance based, i.e. if students' test scores around the state are less than satisfactory, then teachers shouldn't receive a pay raise. There are few other jobs (besides professional sports players) that receive a set amount of money year after year regardless of the performance.
The teachers need to realize that their demand for more money and threats of striking takes a toll on the students, breaking their confidence in the faculty entrusted with their education.
And what do you need a raise for anyway? YOU GET A 3 MONTH VACATION. If you make 50k a (school)year you probably wouldn't even need a part time job during the summer
-- Posted by Samuel Krans on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 11:38 am EST

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Dwayne,

I don't get COLA pay increases.
I do get incentive comp, based on my performance.

I think at issue here is the arrogance of the union and teachers with less than reasonable increase demands. The CPE isn't anywhere near 4% or the laughable 6% per year for three years and with the current economic situation as it is, a little less pressure on the taxpayers would be a good thing.
-- Posted by Dave None on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 10:56 am EST

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Go back through the posts and see who was bashing who and the name calling. It was not me and you guys keep up with the name calling not me. And you guys have no real answers but keep saying I don't get that at my job and then go on to say but ya I don't work for a school. All I hear is jealous people whining about what other people are getting because it is being made public. But yet you guys are not offering your job pay status or where you work. It would be different if it was your job and pay raise that keeps being brought up in a public paper.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 10:31 am EST

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Dwayne: You really should stop. You remind me of some high school teachers I had who just talked and talked and talked, never shutting up. We were just dumb kids but smart enough to see they were just filling space and time.

BTW, the possessive form of "they" is "their". Fourth grade spelling class, I believe. What grade do you teach?
-- Posted by SC Boy on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 9:27 am EST

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Yes baseball players, and many professional's, get paid way to much and shouldn't get any raises. The reason we are only talking about the school and the teachers is because that's what the article is about. It isn't about baseball players, car company executives or anyone else. The topic is Rutland Town School and their Teachers.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 8:08 am EST

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This is better than the comics.....

Dwayne, you really need to get back on your meds......

It would be great to bust the teachers union, then you can dump the poor performing teachers and promote the good ones. One great way to control costs would be to get rid of COLA pay increases and compensate based on performance. COLA increases are stupid, a pay raise just because you've been there each year? Gee, that will certainly motivate people.
-- Posted by Dave None on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 8:00 am EST

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The state of New York are using tax payers money to fund the New York Yankees new baseball stadium. They are using TAX MONEY! They took four hundred million dollars out of tax payers pockets because they said they couldn't afford the new stadium on there own. They took there money, built the new stadium and turned around and spent four hundred forty million dollars on three ball players in the same year. Why do you think people in New York are mad? #1 because they were lied to and #2 they used Tax Payers money to do it. SO DON'T TELL ME THEY DON'T USE TAX PAYERS MONEY!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 7:40 am EST

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Hey Dwayne,
Get a clue. baseball players are not paid with TAX PAYER FUNDS. and I hope you stop with your posts while you are still ahead. you are really making teachers look bad with your smart ass posts. you are only poking the tax payers in a negative way here. and its not gonna help your paycheck any in the long run. mad tax payers = no school budgets passed. so think about what you are saying and how its reflecting on your profession. and fellow teachers. if you rattle the tax payer they will always ***** you in the end buddy. keep up the good work Dwayne. Im sure your fellow teachers are happy of the way you are representing them here on the rutland heralds comments section.
-- Posted by John Smith on Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 1:55 am EST

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Russell bro you missed the point baby! Nobody is going after pro players who are signing multi million dollar contracts and nobody is complaining what they are making,and we are in real bad economic times . But yet we attack our local teachers for asking for a raise. I find teachers more valuable in society then over paid pro players. Like I said we have some jaded people on this board who took pay cuts or no raises and there jealous of people who do get raises.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 11:20 pm EST

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Most deductions that we all have taken out of OUR paychecks, are not included in the Teacher's Salary but is paid by the taxpayers seperately under FRINGE BENEFITS.
Add up the 6 hour day for 210 contract days and divide by what they are totally paid in Salary and Fringe Benefit and they are over paid for the quality of work that they are now performing.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 10:57 pm EST

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Fire them and replace them with people who really want to teach.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 10:54 pm EST

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I love it, Now Dwayne Johnson is comparing teachers to professional babseball players!! Talk about your apples to oranges!! What is next, comparing them to Marvel comic super heros? Dude, Get a Clue! The issue really isn't the union, or the proposal for a pay raise, the issue is the tax payer and the fact that they taxed to the hilt and every other tax funded department have been level funded or cut. What makes the Teachers more entitled than say the highway dept, the PD the firefighters, etc they aren't! Like I've said before, look at how many teachers will be coming up for retirement in 3 years, and you will find motive for this proposal. Pensions are based upon your 3 highest payroll years in most cases. Yes Teachers help teach an mold our youth and they do have a complex job, but that doesn't make them anymore different that anyone else, especially in a fiscal slow down.
-- Posted by Russell Goodrich on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 7:59 pm EST

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Well since the the staff at the Herald won't delete or even recognize what Dwayne did. I am. Your stance and conversation with the other posters was going fine and you had your points, why did you feel the need to call her probably one of the worst words in the English language other then Democrat. Please people take a look at Dwaynes post below and look at the last four capital letters. This includes the Herald staff please. Arguing a point is one thing. But you are the most disgusting of children using this and I am male. I hope your fellow NEA union employees are proud of you. Unfortunately just like the crap that really goes on behind closed doors at RHS you won't be punished for this either.

Proper English I believe Is Not. Sometimes people Can't Understand Normal Thinking!

-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 8:14 am EST
-- Posted by Don D on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 5:50 pm EST

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No they shouldn't be open because of this same discussion/ argument that's going on right now! Know what I mean? You guys are trying to compare your jobs to teachers jobs. It's like comparing apples to oranges and it's not working! I mean let's take baseball for an example, the Yankees spent 430 million dollars on 3 players this year. Why are we not complaining about that, when a teachers job in my opinion is way more important than winning a World Series or a pennant.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 4:47 pm EST

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The issue here is not union or non-union, or raise or no raise. It is setting up finances, and this includes teachers salaries and benefits such that they represent to the taxpayer a good value. Also, I strongly believe these negotiation sessions should be in open session. Having these in executive session (closed to the public) allows both sides to offer unreasonable options. This often leads to ill-will and ultimately an impasse.
-- Posted by Allen Seiple on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 3:57 pm EST

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I think unions are one of the reasons we are in the shape we are in..auto unions...teacher unions..post office unions....you name a union that is worthwhile for the rest of us...the Boston globe went for $1 a day and $2.50 on sunday to $1.50 daily and $4.00 on sunday recently..why?? union contracts...they were almost going to shut down the paper...
-- Posted by Palin is Sweet on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 2:40 pm EST

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I think anyone asking for a raise in this economy is crazy. I am not just saying the teachers. I think people making good money and that have benefits should be happy they do. I was making good money and had great benefits until this year. My pay has been cut (not due to my performance. It was that or no job), I lost my healthcare and a bonus....Funny. Didn't get one this year. I understand that people are being critical of the hours teachers keep and the pay they get, etc. I just think that anyone, teachers, public officials, etc. should not be asking for such a big raise in this economy.

~An opinion from another None None
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 1:30 pm EST

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Exactly! nobody even knew what AIG Executives were getting for bonuses in the past. Until now when money is tight and they had bail out money and then they gave it out as bonuses and then made it public. Which is wrong but that's not my point. Nobody knew what they were getting until they made it public! It's the same thing here with public teachers and everybody Else's jobs.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 12:26 pm EST

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I may be wrong here, but when town/ city budgets are printed and employee salaries are posted they usually represent not just the salary but also the cost for benefits such as health insurance, workman's comp., etc. It is probably unfair to say the figure of $70,000 is what any teacher is actually bringing home by way of a paycheck. Our teachers have very good insurance in our state, better than most, however, I doubt most of us would want to be sending our children to the care of adults each day that were often sick because they didn't take care of their health concerns due to poor insurance. It should be considered money well spent.

Teachers probably shouldn't get a raise this year, but like most people they are probably being as proactive as they can in advocating for one. I am sure most of us do that at our own jobs regardless of whether we eventually get one. As town employees their fight for raises is public and in the newspaper, unlike many of our own. Being vicious and critical about them is probably not fair.

And I do agree with other posters that saying a teaching job is 9-3 for 10 months a year is also inaccurate, and really minimizes the work teachers do.
-- Posted by none none on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 12:11 pm EST

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All I see is jaded people who didn't get raises and want to bring those who do down. DON'T HATE THE PLAYER,HATE THE GAME!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 9:37 am EST

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There sure seems to be a lot of cheap shots being said here. I am a Rutland Town tax payer and I am not for the pay increase for the teachers. I believe they do a wonderful job with our children but to ask for a pay increase with the economy the way it is to me is ridiculous.

I have read how teachers have to keep their teaching certificates, grade papers, and work longer hours then people think. Well you knew what you were getting into when you decided to be a teacher.

I also have to keep up with the times in my job and I work 10 or more hours a day and I can tell you I don't get paid as much as the teachers at our school. I too have a college education and don't flip burgers (and let me tell you there is nothing wrong with doing that). Many people don't have a college education. In these comments you are implying that they choose not to get one. Maybe they couldn't afford to pay for college or other circumstances occurred.

I think the teachers probably deserve a pay increase as anyone who does a good job does. I know of many people who didn't get a pay increase this year even though they deserved one. Instead they have lost benefits, had pay cuts and are losing hours.

The other thing I would like to say is we are sitting here arguing about the pay raises and are in our comfortable homes while we have so many other things we should be worrying about. The homeless, people who are barely making it by, our soldiers fighting for our freedom. Seems pretty sad to me.

~ An opinion from another None None
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 9:23 am EST

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Dwayne, is this level of scrunity put upon teachers the same as an LNA or LPN? and could that explain the need for 5 students in a classroom, let's not forget the above average in benefits, reimbursements not normally seen at the business level. While the county is at an all time high in unemployment, business decline and taxpayor decline in income, should we put this all aside to forgo food and heat to give teachers a COLA raise, when we are in a severe recession.
-- Posted by Curious gt on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 9:04 am EST

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As usual, the conversation starts out with opinions about the appropriateness of a 4% contract increase and ends up with two 5-year olds at recess making fun of how each other uses language- grow up Dwayne and Witch and stick to the discussion topic- jeesh!!
-- Posted by just sayin on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 8:52 am EST

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Not only do you seem to leave words out but, you also seem to use capitalization improperly.
-- Posted by White Witch on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 8:28 am EST

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The word "isn't" is acceptable grammar. It is a contraction for " is not". Like I said, go back to school.
-- Posted by White Witch on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 8:24 am EST

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Proper English I believe Is Not. Sometimes people Can't Understand Normal Thinking!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sun, Jul 12, 2009, 8:14 am EST

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Dwayne?? Isn't isnt a word?

I am confused...and I used to teach too...
-- Posted by Palin is Sweet on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 10:46 pm EST

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Did you just use the word "isn't"? I can tell you were not an English teacher either. And I hear alot of people say they were teachers but quit, I find that real interesting. I'm just saying!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 8:33 pm EST

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Dwayne Johnson,
I can't help but wonder. Do you have a college education? If so, are you teaching the youth of today? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then I sure hope you're not teaching English on any level. If the answers are yes, then you need to go back to college and get a real education. Seems you may have partook in too may extra curricular activities while there. Or perhaps English just isn't your thing. By the way, I have experience within the teaching field and the reason I got out was because of educators who had the same perspective you have. Getting a college degree doesn't make you any better than anyone else. In your case, it certainly doesn't make you any more knowledgeable than other people I have met along the way who never went to college. I have always had difficulty with other college graduates who think that because they received a college diploma that it makes them entitled to being better than those who don't. Not all of the children that teachers instruct are going to end up being college bound. Does this make them any less worthy of an educator's time? I for one think not! After all, aren't we there "for the children"?
-- Posted by White Witch on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 6:01 pm EST

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Just saying, yes we do agree, and no it was not my intention to Bash. They have a vital job just like joe the toilet cleaner. To change a direction on the arguement, it dawned on me while i was posting earlier. A closer look needs to be taken at the amount of teachers ready to retire within this 3 year window. Everyone knows that a pension is usually set by the 3 highest payroll years. Go figure, why such a push, but thats just an assumption.
-- Posted by Russell Goodrich on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 12:40 pm EST

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With all respect 2/3 of my tax bill in Proctor is on the education side. So, I think big money is being spent in all towns for their schools. I am just asking for a more balanced story, for schools within one supervisory union.
Some how that does not seem so diffcult.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 10:48 am EST

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Actually, Russ, I think we actually agree on the critical part of this issue- that the teachers should NOT be asking for a raise at this time. With others losing jobs and still others seeing cutbacks and added financial stress, this is not a time to be asking for 4% salary increases. For the person making $70,000, that amounts to almost $3,000. I just get frustrated with people like you who take the opportunity to slam the teaching field on the whole with comments about short work days and months and months of vacation. I taught for 24 years before moving to another role in education and know, firsthand, how many long nights are spent with planning and student feedback and how many weeks of the summer are committed to license renewal activities and personal improvement.
-- Posted by just sayin on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 9:31 am EST

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Just sayin "BABY", I have no intentions of being a martyr as you so suggest, but I am entittled to my opinion. Also atleast I can put my name out and not hide behind an alias! All I am saying is that this proposal by the union is outrageous in a time of fiscal belt tightening. But for the bargaining unit for the teachers to keep their plan to ask for 6% raises quiet until after they find out the FY09-10 budget passed goes to show they have no regard for the people who are "TAXED" no pun intended, with paying their salaries! You may not want to "quibble" (make trivial objections: to argue over unimportant things and make petty objections) over justification of a raise, but it comes down to the people who pay your salary (the Town Taxpayer), and they are quibbling, whether you like it or not!!
-- Posted by Russell Goodrich on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 8:49 am EST

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Because Rutland/ Rutland town is more popular then West Rutland and Proctor. No offense to anybody in West Rutland and Proctor but the big money is those other two schools. The more money you make or get the more scrutiny comes your way, no matter how unfair it is. A giant microscope under one school is unfair when it could be happening to all surrounding schools in the area!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 8:34 am EST

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Are Rutland Town teachers asking for a higher raise increase than the other schools in the supervisory union,Proctor and West Rutland. This is an important piece of the story that has been left out.
Balance the story Rutland Herald and inform us as to the teacher rates at Proctor and West Rutland. You brand the Rutland Town teachers, without telling the entire story!
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 8:26 am EST

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Rutland Town just received its property tax re-appraisal even though I haven't seen any artical about it in our local newspaper. The average propery went up at least 45% in value. That means starting this fall town tax payers will pay much more in property taxes. The dispute over a pay increase will probably seem like an easy issue compared to the approval of the school budget next year.

It is difficult to evaluate pay justification teacher or non teachers jobs depending on where an individual worked. State and federal employees are nomrally funded by taxes. When we hear that government employees are getting pay increases it normally means more taxes paid. There is a lot of waste in government spending that we don't hear about. Normally this is at the federal level. Even though I question the union's reasoning for pushing for this increase if we could see all the waste at the federal level this increase would seem minimal. If we had the details on some of the idiots that are over staffed and underutilized in Vermont paid by tax dollars we would think this pay increase is minimal in comparison.

Rutland Town school is well run and has quality teachers.

The increase that has become such an issue that tax payers budget vote will probably be impacted by the unions need to continue to fight for the increase. If the school budget doesn't get passed next year the pay increase the union is demanding will seem like a minor issue when diificult budget reductions will be required.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 8:04 am EST

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Not going to get into who works harder, who works longer, who prepares more, etc., etc. That whole conversation is like having a peeing contest with a skunk. But here's the bottom line: For teachers to be asking for any raise at all in this economy is ridiculous, not to mention insensitive. The economic ship is sinking. Teachers should grab a bucket, like the rest of us, and lend a hand.

Teachers do good, valuable work, but they are not special. They live in the same economic world as the rest of us. It's time they understand that.
-- Posted by SC Boy on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 6:07 am EST

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Actually some teachers stay later to help with there students with work they are not understanding without pay and here's the kicker...... They have to grade 30 to 40 papers a night which you either stay late at school or bring them home with you and grade them while watching there favorite TV shows. So for someone to say 7:00 to 3:00 for 8 to 9 month period is bogus. Plus they have to go to summer school on there dime to get so many credits to get re certified to teach for the next year. Like I said if you are not in a school environment you don't know what it's like or what goes on. YOU SEE TAX DOLLARS!!!!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Sat, Jul 11, 2009, 12:46 am EST

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Another country heard from! Another clueless poster who doesn't understand the whole picture as it relates to teacher expectations (grading, planning, meetings, professional development, updating licenses, certifications, and endorsements) who gives us the same pablum (9:00-3:00, 7-8 months a year) we have read for years. Good idea Palin- get rid of the experienced teachers and put the education of our children solely in the hands of inexperienced teachers fresh out of college. That might be OK for your kids but not for mine. I wil always consider teaching much more than a real job.
-- Posted by just sayin on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 10:11 pm EST

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Let's see a rookie teacher is like being on a honeymoon phase where they won't rock the boat when it comes to the kids where the seasoned vet teacher knows how to keep kids not only in line but focused. Has more knowledge and knows how to motivate kids. You need a balance of youth blended with veteran teachers, you can't be too young or in the other direction too old.

Pretty much what you are saying is get rid of everybody at the top and start over, repeat process over and over. Now we take that same thought process and apply it to your job. Either your gone now or soon will be. How does that make you feel?
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 10:07 pm EST

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I like what Ronald Regan did with the air traffic controllers. They like teachers are paid quite well....teachers of course work 9-3, 8-9 months a year..but complain all the time....so let them go..hire young newly minted college grads...they will be less jaded, more willing to work , and bring fresh new ideas to the classroom....let these "hard working tenured teachers" go get a real job....Have them get in line or get gone...
-- Posted by Palin is Sweet on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 9:24 pm EST

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There's a reason why people who have college education get paid more then people who don't. Better benefits, better pay. Not always the case but for the most part it's true. When things get tight like the times we are in right now people get pissy about who's making what and who's getting what.
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 6:16 pm EST

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Take a chill pill Russ baby!! You are not unlike millions of others in the country with similar issues so stop trying to come on as the martyr of the year. I know it is hard for you to hear about the additional job expectations that teachers have (the "blah blah blah" you mentioned) but in the same sentence you bring in the para-professional issue. You are all over the place here! Teachers do not just have paraprofessionals unilaterally assigned to their classrooms nor can they just request one. They usually arrive alongside a student with disabilities or are assigned to classrooms where a number of "students at-risk" are identified. I can not quibble with withholding a raise for the teachers if that practice is, in fact, consistent across the Rutland Central supervisory district. I am feeling, however, that this is not the case.
-- Posted by just sayin on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 6:02 pm EST

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Mr Johnson, you are right. I don't work at a school, for a supervisory union. But I am a Town resident and I have a right to voice my opinion. And quite frankly we don't go around asking what the teachers make, its public record, my job, however is not a public one, nor is it funded by public money! As for raises. I didn't get one, neither did my co workers, and you know what, it sucks, but atleast we have a job!!!! You can give me the song and dance about what a teacher has to go through, blah blah blah, but tell me why do they have to have so many para-educators?? You want to to whine about what teachers go through to keep their license,come to healthcare, look at what we all do, what we go through, and do it 52 weeks a year!! Good day to you SIR, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am mine!
-- Posted by Russell Goodrich on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 5:41 pm EST

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Still looking for some imput on Proctor's contracts.
The Proctor School Board is so closed mouth, I called the supervisory union, and still no response.
Look into it Rutland Herald!
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 4:39 pm EST

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The idea that teachers are the only working population that has responsibility to those they serve or some other higher authority is a concept that teachers always seem to drum on about. Get with it. Most of us have responsibility to others and higher authorities and manage to put in long days for less money than >$70,000 a year. The idea that a group of teachers can't be replaced with new teachers for less money while still living up to the responsibilities of the job is a myth. It happens every day. A teacher quits, moves on or retires and a new one is hired, life goes on, the kids get a good education, etc. How much longer can taxpayers afford to pay these high salaries when they are strapped for money themselves? And it doesn't end with the high salaries. Health care continues to go up, pension costs continue to go up.
Another thing that thoroughly irked me and many of the town's citizens about the Rutland Town teacher raise issue is that they waited until the school budget squeaked through at the town meeting day vote and then they asked for the outrageous 6% per year for 3 years increase. Others have mentioned money grubbing in their comments. Talk about underhanded.
-- Posted by Common Sense on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 3:21 pm EST

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If you taught for only a few years then why did you get out? Because you weren't making the money you thought you would make? You get into teaching not because of money (You don't make much) You get into it to make a difference into young adults lives. Build a better community! We hate being compared to other peoples jobs because of the responsibility that we have not only to the state but to educate our youth. It's not like we are out flipping burgers at Mcdonalds or pumping gas at your local gas station. WE HAVE A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY WITH THE KIDS!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 12:20 pm EST

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I always thought teachers were supposed to be a relatively smart group of people. Guess I was wrong. In tough times when many good folks are losing their jobs, homes, benefits (like pensions and health care), etc., Rutland Town teachers initially asked for a 6% per year for each of 3 years raise. Blows your mind doesn't it. And they get a healthy pension and good benefits to boot! And just to make you a little more comfortable with this issue, several Town teachers are making over $70,000 per year for working 9 months! Now count up all the vacation days that many of us don't get right off in a new job. A little out of place in an area where many can only dream of such rewards.
All this in a climate where there are many good folks looking for teaching jobs who would jump at a job at Rutland Town school in a heartbeat. Maybe it's time for a change in attitude and staff at the school. Bring in the fresh new teachers. Ditch the pension and go with a 401k like practically every business (large and small) in the country and Vermont is doing.
Yes, I am a Rutland Town taxpayer. One of many who are just tired of the money pit mentality at the school. Oh, and I did teach for a few years. Time for supposedly educated folks to get their heads out of the sand and wake up to reality and join the rest of society as we try to wend our way through the tough economic times we're in.
-- Posted by Common Sense on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 11:03 am EST

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Rutland town teachers are overpaid and under worked. Just wait till the economy gets better then ask for your raise, sounds like money grubbing to me. Just go on strike , and see how that works for you. and yes i am a taxpayer in rutland town, cant draw blood from a stone. so all rutland town teachers, tighten up your belts just like every one else.
-- Posted by m e on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 9:26 am EST

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I understand Proctor was in the same boat with teacher contracts.I am wondering if they have settled? Also why no follow up on Proctor's teacher contracts? It is the same supervisiory union, makes the story seem a little tilted.
It makes Rutland Town teachers appear as money grubbers, when a town next door was in the same boat.Perhaps the writer should contact the Central office, and tell the entire story.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 8:05 am EST

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Russell Goodrich I can tell you don't work for a school at any level! Nobody goes around asks or wants to know how much you get paid or what your raise was. Teachers get the brunt of it because the school board has to show where every penny was spent to the public. Where as your job does not. By the way how much of a raise did you get this year? And did you sir feel you deserve that raise? Or did you not get one and feel slighted when you find out someone else did? HMMM? Nobody knows what a teachers has to go through not only in a day with the kids but what they have to go through to keep there teachers license. So go think about that one for a bit! GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 7:54 am EST

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The school board needs to stick to their guns!! NO ONE ELSE PAID BY TOW TAXPAYERS got a raise, why should the teachers!! Especially at a time of budgetary belt tightening. They (teachers) want a raise and our elustrious Clerk and chairman of the Town's municipal Government want to lay people off to lessen tax burden !!!Which I must say the burden isn't from the Municipal side yet that is the one that feels the brunt of cuts! WAKE UP!!! I may have received a great education at RTES, but some of you are not worth what you get paid!!! Again, The school needs to stick to their current stance!!
-- Posted by Russell Goodrich on Fri, Jul 10, 2009, 7:23 am EST

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