RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

Is health care a human right?

Campaign makes case for universal care at forum



Dr. Mark Messier speaks at the “Health care is a Human Right” forum at Rutland Free Library on Tuesday evening.

Cassandra Hotaling / Rutland Herald

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By Brent Curtis Staff Writer - Published: October 7, 2009

With conditions here and there, every legislator in the room Tuesday night agreed that health care was a "right" — or at least a "national value."

But few rights come with higher costs, most lawmakers in the room agreed.

Those sentiments came from less than a dozen state representatives and one senator who listened to arguments and examples given Tuesday night by the Health Care is a Human Right Campaign, which held its fifth legislative forum of the year in Rutland before about 50 people.

But it's possible if not probable that many of their colleagues will harbor similar sentiments when they return to Montpelier to consider a pair of bills the group has helped to introduce in both the House and Senate.

Democratic Rep. Margaret Andrews summed up most of the legislators' concerns when she said health care reform's biggest obstacle was a poor economy.

"This is just reality folks," she said. "I see health care as an essential infrastructure but the truth is we have a very serious funding situation. We have a $200 million hole in the budget ... . We have a lot of very challenging decisions to make."

Republican Sen. Kevin Mullin was the only legislator in the room who said he would not support legislation calling for the state to establish a "publicly financed integrated regional health care delivery system" to provide "universal access to essential health care services."

"A health care system in Vermont would cost more than every other part of the budget in Vermont today," he said. "No one state is capable of making the leap."

But members of the campaign disagreed.

After bringing the health care problem into focus by calling on patients, business people and doctors who pointed out the gaps and inequities of the present, for-profit system of delivering health care, a trio of speakers made the case for making Vermont a self-sufficient health care provider.

"We need a system that puts providing health care first, not profits," said group member Bela Schug of Rutland. "We need a system that's transparent, efficient and accountable to us, the people it serves."

Schug was followed by Kate Thomas, of Rutland, who said Vermont needs to succeed where the federal government is failing.

"It should be clear that efforts at the federal level will fail," Thomas said. "It's time for Vermont to lead."

Such leadership would cost money. But Dr. Deborah Richter, a family physician from Cambridge and member of Health Care for All, said the state wouldn't need to pay more than the $4.8 billion a year that its residents already spend on health care.

She said if the state followed universal health care systems already in place in other countries, Vermont could provide universal health care for perhaps half of the $4.8 billion cost.

"We can do this in Vermont. It's important to remember that we're already paying for health care. All of us whether we are receiving it or not," she said.

Legislators present included Andrews; William Canfield, a Fair Haven Republican; Gale Courcelle, a Rutland City Democrat; Dennis Devereux, a Mount Holly Republican; Peter Fagan, a Rutland City Republican; Eldred French, a Shrewsbury Democrat; Dave Potter, a Clarendon Democrat, and Mullin.

brent.curtis@rutlandherald.com








READER COMMENTS


If health care were a human right it should be free to everyone. If someone else must pay for your health care through taxes it is not a right but a privilege that is extended to you.

Is free food a human right? Only in our society do people think that it is their right to demand that others pay for their rights. In most societies if you do not hunt you don't eat. If you don't build your shelter you sleep in the cold and rain.

You have the right to work for things like health care, food or shelter you do not have a right to expect other productive Americans to provide you with them.
-- Posted by northstar62 on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 6:36 pm EST

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Dave,

its basic human nature!

the point is that giving it all away removes the need to get out of bed in the morning...why not just stay at home, live longer and let society pay my way like my free rider neighbors...

read the posters here and how they are tired of supporting a sagging system...all thats left is for them to give in and take a slice with the rest of 'em...

if you are saying that an america where you pull YOURSELF up by your bootstraps is gone...then there is a REAL problem...
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 10:30 am EST

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I wouldn't say most, some maybe....

Nothing I'd brag about either.
-- Posted by Dave None on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 10:15 am EST

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KS: That's fedallygook. Congressspeak for gobbledegook
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 9:21 am EST

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Dave,

Unfortunately, its an ounce more than most...
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 9:10 am EST

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So Eric, If I'm reading your post correctly, you're about one ounce of common sense from a career welfare recipient?
-- Posted by Dave None on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 7:37 am EST

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What a bunch of gobbledegook.
-- Posted by Katherine Silta on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 5:59 am EST

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I want to?

I WANT to be a rock star...I went college because i wanted a decent job so I can earn a house and healthcare...

if they were giving it away I would have spent more time strumming away...
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 3:32 pm EST

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I meant displace, BTW.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 12:51 pm EST

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What America used to be is gone. Things change and with change the American society needs to adapt.

You'd go to college and have a career because you want to. It's why the majority of us are doing what we're doing.

I really don't believe FDR was talking about communism, he was talking about concepts. He was talking about something that would work with the Bill of Rights, not replace or replace them.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 12:50 pm EST

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Dave,
it was direct response to your posted rights...
One question, if you are entitled to a job, a home and healthcare...why go to college or find a career?

Its back to communism removes incentive to be productive...while my response was crude, yet historical, it makes the point of what America used to be...

in a tip to whats to come...the US goverment wants to vaccinate every child over the death of 600 people due to the flu...sounds like a great cost to benefit ratio...

and what ever happened to the west nile thing...how many U.S. deaths after 5 years of scare reporting?

next will be the x76u running nose...it bet it will come around fall time...either get vaccinated or you'll get it and have to drink juice and eat right and sleep before it goes away!
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 12:34 pm EST

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MS - I never said it would be easy. Another major issue is the fickleness of the voters at larger. They vote for the person who tells them what they want to hear and who brings home the pork.
AARP is an awesome example of special interest running the show at local and national levels. The paradox with them is AARP supports reform of the medical system while it's constituency is rabidly opposed to it. All the while many many of AARP members are on medicare which is basically nationally subsidized healthcare.
When healthcare becomes completely unaffordable to all except the highest wage earners will real reform gain support and serious consideration.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 12:00 pm EST

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Nice job being on topic Eric.

Thanks for that valuable feedback.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 11:51 am EST

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how about the John Smith Bill O' Rights:

If you dont work, you dont eat.
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 11:03 am EST

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Dave None --

Sorry but with today's lemming voter approved, partisan hacks, blame game playing legislators in the golden dome and the even less efficient, self serving national delegation in DC, you have a better chance of hitting powerball this week.
Face it, we are going to have an overly expensive, poorly managed, inefficient, non competitive, punitive national health care system rammed down our throats by the above mentioned officials...
until we have a viable 3rd party to challenge this gang of crooks from both parties we are nothing but pawns to be sacrificed... cold hard truth...
-- Posted by M S on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 10:35 am EST

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MS - Which is why reform needs to be brainstormed and formulated outside the political and corporate arenas away from all the influences from special interest groups.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 9:50 am EST

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"We need a system that's transparent, efficient and accountable to us, the people it serves."

As I asked before in this debate, does anyone honestly believe that this can happen on either a state or federal level. Be honest, with the current partisan political lemmings that are sitting under the golden dome in the capital, or the ship of fools in DC, can the above statement ever be accomplished???
-- Posted by M S on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 9:35 am EST

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

Take it however you like, it sounds pretty reasonable to me.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 7:55 am EST

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Shy, punitive damages are awarded to punish maliciousness or intentional gross disregard for the rights of others. They are almost never even allowed to be considered by a jury in an ordinary medical malpractice suit. That's right wing snake oil my friend.

Thank you Matt for clearing this up.

M Mobae: I think you and I are on the same page
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 7:54 am EST

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http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20091008/OPINION01/910080316/1038/OPINION01

Some interesting perspective.
-- Posted by Dave None on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 7:52 am EST

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Shy Wreath:

I agree withh you for the most part. We all can see a need for reform. It needs to be done right it will take more then an act of Congress and they are likely to ***** it up and make things worse.

My issue is this it is not a "right of being" or even of being and American.

We can reform how we pay for it which really is what people are talking about. I think we have the best care in the world, we just may not have the best way to pay for it.

If we rush it it will cost more even for those who can't afford and as with most things out of Washington it will never fixed.
-- Posted by M Mobae on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 7:25 am EST

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Shy, punitive damages are awarded to punish maliciousness or intentional gross disregard for the rights of others. They are almost never even allowed to be considered by a jury in an ordinary medical malpractice suit. That's right wing snake oil my friend.

Steve C, nice explaination of poly sci 101 positive v negative rights. There's no "right" to health care any more than there's a right to housing, food, transportation, retirement funds, child care or anything else that can be bought. I'm on the fence as to whether or not we should go with socialized medicine - Canada and England seem to like it - but enough with the left wing sanctamony regarding "rights".
-- Posted by Matt Anderson on Thu, Oct 8, 2009, 5:29 am EST

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One more thing please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought that Blue Cross and Blue Shield were not for profit.
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 11:16 pm EST

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And that brings us to tort reform. I am not a lawyer but as I understand it there are two parts to the awarding of penalties in the typical malpractice suit: actual damages and a punishment. What needs reform is the amount of punishment that is awarded. I'm sure no one on these threads would want to give up the right to legal recourse if they feel they have been wronged. But I don't think that winning a lawsuit should be like winning the lottery.
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 11:11 pm EST

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M Mobae: It's commendable that you were able to pay your own way. I have had to do the same until occurred to me that I was being charged for the people who didn't or couldn't pay. I'm not for that. So I went out and sought insurance. Because I have cancer no one will insure me. I finally had to join a pool in another state to get coverage. I was not looking for a handout, but I didn't want to pay $36000.00 for a procedure that Blue Cross only paid $10000.00 for. And this is the problem. If hospitals and doctors will accept a lower rate from people that they know are going to pay through insurance, they have to pass on the costs of treating people who can't or won't pay on to people who pay their own way.
I also feel that more and more people getting healthcare and can't or won't pay and this is what has to stop. Who cares if it's a right or not? People still get treated whether they pay or not. Can you imagine the law suits if hospitals and doctors refused to treat people in real need?
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 10:28 pm EST

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I understand your concerns angelo, betty, ann. In the midst of our worst economic downturn in decades, our pols want to commit the middle class taxpayers to an incredible increase in taxes.
-- Posted by Handy Andy on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 9:48 pm EST

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The Right to Bear Arms
The Right of the People to be Secure in Their Homes
The Right of Citizens of the United States to Vote
No where in the Bill of Rights does it say Health Insurance
is a Human Right
If any one on this page says they can afford oBama care,,I have some Swamp Land I would like to sell you...
Peg Andrews,,PLEASE she sold out her District for Special Interest Money...
-- Posted by angelo None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:23 pm EST

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can not afford Obama care can you?

-- Posted by Elizabeth Pecor on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 5:10 pm EST

Impeach Obama!
-- Posted by Ann Marie None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 5:37 pm EST

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Peg Andrews is a State Rep. OMG what is this world coming to. Do doctors make house calls? "FREE HEALTH CARE??? NOT.....nothing is ever free just more taxes taken from us poor folks that work for a living. I can not afford Obama care can you?
-- Posted by Elizabeth Pecor on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 5:10 pm EST

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This argument can go a bunch of ways and all be somewhat correct. Making patients pay out of pocket sounds good, t then the patient will limit their visit which could cause a more serious and more expensive medical problem in the future. There is no easy answer in how we pay for it. The whole system needs a rework. I hate to say it because I don't believe in socialized medicine or soclialism of any kind. However, without the government totally controlling all payment aspects the health care problem will probably never be resolved.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 3:57 pm EST

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Hey Dave None:

Stop whinning and send the check! Your all talk!
-- Posted by M Mobae on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 3:07 pm EST

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Also, the main reason health insurance is so expensive in this country is government intervention in the market.

The big factor here is that the Internal Revenue Code exempts health insurance benefits from income tax. Consequently, employers find that its cheaper to offer employees health insurance instead of offering them higher wages with which the employees could purchase their own health insurance. Now, since their insurance is being provided pre-tax and and taken out of their salary before they receive their paycheck (rather than coming directly from their own pockets after getting paid), employees are more likely to use their health insurance and go to the doctor for every minor ache or whenever they get a bad cold. This drives up insurance prices, but since they aren't paying for their insurance premiums directly, most people don't see the connection or just don't care. The ones who are really hurt are those who are self-employed or whose jobs don't provide health insurance (for whatever reason) because they feel the affects of higher premiums directly. This is why it's nearly impossible to find cheap health insurance; subsidized employers driving up the price.

Think about it, if you used your auto insurance to pay every time you got your oil changed or replaced you wipers, your premiums would be insane. Similarly, if you use you health insurance to pay for every minor bruise and every time you go for a check-up, the prices will go up.

Exacerbating the problem is the fact that many people have now become accustomed to this state of affairs and no longer know how to simply pay out-of-pocket for a check-up. A good (for most people), underutilized solution is catastrophic insurance. Catastrophic plans are bare-bones plans that have much lower premiums (often about $50/month) but have very high deductibles (usually $3000-$5000). This sounds odd to some people, but if you're under 40 and relatively healthy, it's probably worth it. Get one of these plans, and take the difference you're saving (probably $200 or more each month) and put it aside. With all that money you're saving you'll have plenty to simply pay the doctor in cash when you go in for your yearly check-up and after about 18 months will have saved enough to cover the deductible if some horrible tragedy should befall you.

Congress needs to change the tax code to stop subsidizing insurance companies and we as citizens need to learn to be more self-reliant.
-- Posted by Steve C on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 1:47 pm EST

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People need to draw the distinction between negative and positive rights. Negative rights require nothing of others but to refrain from infringing on them. For example, your right to life is a negative right since all it requires from others is that they not harm you. Negative rights are fundamental human rights.

On the other hand, positive rights (which would more accurately be called privileges or benefits) require others to provide you with something else. The so-called right to health care would be an example of this. If you claim a right to health care you must realize that you are also claiming someone else is obliged to provide it to you. The conundrum is that such an obligation on others inherently violates their negative rights. If you want free health care, either other people will have to pay for it (violating their rights to their own property) or doctors will be forced to provide it for free (violating their rights to liberty).

To persist in believing that positive rights are fundamental, one must believe that negative rights are not and that they can be infringed to provide you with the privileges you seek.

If someone thinks health care is a benefit we should all enjoy, I think that's a worthy goal (leaving aside the flawed assumption that government is intervention is the best way to achieve it), but they should always keep in mind it is a privilege they are advocating, not a fundamental right.
-- Posted by Steve C on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 1:26 pm EST

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if all legislators had their taxpayer paid for health care taken from them starting with the president, the senaters, and the congressmen and all state and local governments there would be great changes. we are suporting them but they are letting us all down by draging their feet.
-- Posted by stan bizon on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 1:17 pm EST

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Just as health care professionals treat symptoms of illnesses and sometimes don't really know the ROOT CAUSES of them, the whole idea of government-funded health care really is the same thing. The issue is not the quality of the care but rather the expense of it which is a symptom of a much broader problem. If steps were taken to control costs at all levels of care, then there would not be as much to pass on to those who consume health services.

For example, how much of your health care professional's fees are a result of the enormous cost of malpractice insurance that he or she must carry to protect themselves from frivolous lawsuits? (By the way, this malpractice insurance might be purchased through one of those "evil" inusrance companies that everyone talks about!)
What's needed first and foremost is some real tort reform in our judicial system that would curtail the number of frivolous lawsuits brought against healthcare providers by ambulance-chasing lawyers for every hangnail and stuffy nose they can find. This would eventually make the cost of malpractice insurance decline and, in turn, would create less expense that would have to be passed on to the consumers.

There are other cost control measures that can be applied as well that would have the same effect on the charges for services.

The real ROOT CAUSE of this alleged health care "crisis" lies not in the greed of the private insurance companies, but in the greed of those who are trying to get rich by bringing suit against health care professionals for whatever reasons they can and the greed of the lawyers that represent them.

Finally, I can find nowhere in the Constitution where it says that health care is a human right and/or is the responsibility of the federal government.
-- Posted by Marek Brzyckzy on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 1:17 pm EST

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Hey Mobae - Check it out...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humane

We should aspire to treat our fellow people better, sometimes it rubs off and sometimes it doesn't.

You have a sorry soul.
-- Posted by Dave None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 12:54 pm EST

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Dave None:

Your idea of a "right" is more like a demand. I should then have the right not to have to pay for that demand.

You said your working so you can write a check.


Please Make Your Check Payable to:

Vermont Department of Taxes
PO Box 1779
Montpelier, VT 05601-1881

Don't be chaep send in a good 95% of your next check, come on it's your right! We demand it!
-- Posted by M Mobae on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 12:08 pm EST

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"We need a system that's transparent, efficient and accountable to us, the people it serves."

And you honestly think that the current circus occupying the statehouse can accomplish this. They can't even come up with a budget that will prevent the state from sliding into bankruptcy. Really, answer honestly... no lib/prog this or neo-con that replies.. The deficit facing this state is growing every day and needs to be dealt with before we give away healthcare to the masses.. and increasing taxes or fees is not the answer, not when my pay is not going up and probably won't be in the near future.
-- Posted by M S on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 11:39 am EST

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I would prefer that medical Dr's offer their opinions regarding medical care and leave their opinions regarding finances to others. I have heard all four sides of the financial debate.
-- Posted by Handy Andy on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 11:20 am EST

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Sorry to disappoint, I have a job and insurance.

Unlike you, I have empathy for people who don't have opportunities that I've enjoyed.

You forget, there's legions of working people unable to afford good healthcare. Not everyone is unemployed and looking for handouts.
-- Posted by Dave None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 10:54 am EST

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Hey Dave None:

I have had 2 major life threating illness's. I paid for both out of my own pocket. I have been
fighting one illness for 25 years. Paid for all of it out of my own pocket because I work for a living and I'm not on the public dole though I could qualify for it. I don't give up and will not till I'm 6 feet under.

That is the way is should be.

Stop looking for "Uncle BO" or the State to pay your way.

Get a job, be a man and pay your own way for a change.

The issue is it a right? No it's a wish!
-- Posted by M Mobae on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 10:42 am EST

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Wonders what will happen if you blow up that stupid rule where you can only buy health insurance in your state only. I can buy car insurance in any state why can't I buy health that way too?
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 10:02 am EST

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While insurance companies, who would basically be out of business if national health care comes into play, form the largest number of PAC's in Washington, do we all really think reform will happen?
-- Posted by Colleen Wright on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 9:57 am EST

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Kevin Mullin sounds like the only practical one in the bunch. Health care needs reform, that is a given, but the REALITY is how do we pay for it? Catamount Health is already on the brink of bankruptcy and we want to expand free healthcare to all? Again, we are watching more social engineering from the Uber-Liberal left in this State, so Vermont can make a statement. Haven't we made enough statements already? Let's get back to work Mr. & Mrs. legislator on creating incentives for working Vermonters to have opportunity here and employers to have a platform for job creation. Imagine Vermont next year as we shut down Yankee "to make a statement" resulting in sky high electricity costs and free healthcare for all paid for by you and me? Scary senario to say the least..
-- Posted by Back Nine on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 9:28 am EST

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go read the article about lowering electric bills for some vermonters.. again tax the middle class/the wealthy/the non-resident/and last but not least tax at a higher rate business and industry.. Why not have our great leaders smith and shumlin pass a bill taxing all the other states to make Vermont the first totally free (of cost to live)society? Then who needs jobs?
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 9:24 am EST

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"heath care is a right" plays the same role as "the war on drugs" it falsely interjects morals into a paternal social good platform...
it justifies spending obscene amounts of money to overcome a problem that couldnt be cured even if there was an infinite budget...
want good health...lets stop crime...if we "work together" I am sure we can eliminate all crime...I mean its our right to be free from crime...sure i have no idea how to pay for it...but its our moral obligation...

this is bull...and you can tell because this paper(for the second time in a week)suspiciously declared all agreed it was a right..."or at least a national value"???
-- Posted by Eric Stanson on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:59 am EST

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Good Luck! This State can't even support its self now, wheres the money going to come from? the tooth fairy! No, it will be us working slobs that once again will have to pay the bill!
-- Posted by True Vermonter on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:58 am EST

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Wonderful meeting. Very respectful and all about values that matter, like compassion as well as efficacy. We want the same thing. The path to get there is not as clear. Let's do the hard work now.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:45 am EST

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"Congratulations to the organizers of the Rutland forum.We can succeed in Vermont if we all work together"..Judy and others there have no concept of where the money will come from to finance this sceme..the Estimated 4.8 billion dollars presently spent in Vermont will cover the costs? prove that ! How many are covered now in that so-called pool of $$$??and you are sugguesting all will just turn all they presently pay for healthcare into this program?. All those uninsured will get total care free? Vermont will be over run with people from all other states to be cared for "FREE".Plus no one has come up with the few hundred million dollars to cover the budget shortfall the legislature and senate has voted us into.peter shumlin now wants to run for governor .Vermont is sliding down an ever steepening slipery slope to bankrupsy.
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:16 am EST

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Well Dwyane and M Mobae - I hope you don't get some disease or major illness when you somehow end up short on insurance.

Oh, wait, we could classify you as worthless slackers.....
-- Posted by Dave None on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 8:11 am EST

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Are you serious? This ranks right up there with people saying that being gay or lesbian is something your born with! Being gay or lesbian is a choice, a lifestyle! I know one issue is like comparing apple to oranges but their still the same when it comes to this issue of it being a human right! It's not a right it's a privilege, if that's the case I think it's human right to get paid while sitting at home!
-- Posted by Dwayne Johnson on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 6:47 am EST

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This is Nuts!

Any state "rep" who votes to support this ought to be thrown out of office ASAP.

You can't show me anywhere where this is a right.

There is a crummy Island about 90 miles south of Fla., please pack your bags and go there and be do gooders there!

WE will not stop you!

Maybe that should be our right!
-- Posted by M Mobae on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 6:24 am EST

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Cheers for the brave legislators who will support the right of all to health care. I hope they will persuade health care committee chairs Sen. Doug Racine and Rep. Steve Maier to hold hearings on the bills now in both their committees.

As for Sen. Mullin: I remember his courageous, conscientious stand in support of marriage equality and hope that he will come to realize that health care is another essential human right.

Congratulations to the organizers of the Rutland forum. We can succeed in Vermont if we all work together.
-- Posted by Judy Olinick on Wed, Oct 7, 2009, 5:39 am EST

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