RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

Sen.: Vt. faces $88M deficit



Administration Secretary Neale Lunderville speaks in Montpelier on Tuesday. Vermont lawmakers worried about the state budget are meeting to take the state’s fiscal pulse.

The Associated Press
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By DAVE GRAM The Associated Press - Published: November 18, 2009

MONTPELIER — Vermont will face a deficit of at least $88 million in the coming budget cycle when state lawmakers resume their 2009-10 session in January, the Senate's highest-ranking Democrat said Tuesday.

"The economy's fallen apart, our revenues have plummeted and the state of Vermont's facing the toughest fiscal challenges in our history," Senate President Pro Tem Peter Shumlin told more than 50 legislators and a couple dozen lobbyists gathered at the Statehouse for a budget briefing.

Shumlin, of Windham County, said the estimate does not include an additional $22 million needed for the retirement fund the state maintains for teachers, $9 million in retirement funds for state employees and a projected $30 million for growth in caseloads for state health and other human services programs.

The state's current operating budget is more than $1 billion.

Gov. James Douglas' administration is going through its annual budget preparation process now for fiscal 2011, which begins July 1, and preparing a spending plan for Douglas to present to lawmakers in his annual budget address in January, said Jim Reardon, the state's commissioner of finance and management.

But Shumlin, House Speaker Shap Smith and others also noted several steps taken by them and by the Douglas administration to put the state in better shape than many others.

Among them: Douglas created "tiger teams," groups of state employees assigned to find efficiencies within their own agencies, and the Democrats who control the Legislature appointed a new committee on government accountability, which has been scouring government programs in search of efficiencies.

The state's payroll has been reduced, and more cuts are contemplated. Nonunion employees making more than $60,000 have taken 5 percent pay cuts or equivalent furloughs and have gone without raises for two years.

And as bad as the budget picture is in Vermont, it's far worse in other states. Vermont revenues have slid back to below 2005 levels, according to the Legislature's Joint Fiscal Office. Florida's have declined to 2001 levels, it added, and Michigan hasn't seen revenue as low as it's getting this year since 1988.

Tuesday's presentations came less than a week after the state's Emergency Board, made up of legislative budget writers and Douglas, got an updated revenue forecast saying the economic downturn appeared to have bottomed out but that the recovery would be slow and painful.








READER COMMENTS


88 Million? We can knock that down a bit. Cancel the 21 Million dollar Forest Park replacement project. Now our deficit is 67 Million. Monitor waste fraud and abuse in Medicaid. Stop allowing people to be transported to the hospital 3-4 times a week in attempts to obtain drugs. Stop allowing welfare recipients to spend money on alcohol, and tobacco. If someone drinks a six pack a day, subtract that amount from what they get in welfare money. If they use tobacco, subtract that too. We should not have to pay for these things. Alcohol and tobacco are not necessities. Stop giving more money to women who pop out more kids in attempts to get more money. Require that before someone goes on welfare, they have to have their tubes tied, and the males have to get a vasectomy. This is way cheaper than letting recipients breed yet another generation of recipients.
Require that everyone at least graduate high school . More education equals less people who choose not to work.
Other areas can be improved too. Require that only sand be used on the roads while it is still snowing. Salt the roads only after the snowing has stopped. I've seen a hundred times when we have heavy snowstorms, one truck will salt the road (which makes it even more slippery while it is still snowing), and the truck behind him will plow all the salt off of the road while spreading yet more salt on the road to be plowed off.
The corrections department. Take a lesson from Sheriff Joe in Arizona. If food or beverage has no nutritional value, stop serving it.
The shortfall can be fixed by stopping the waste.
-- Posted by Smart Thinking on Sun, Nov 22, 2009, 9:31 pm EST

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What's interesting is that some time ago our legislature was obsessing over gay marriage at a time when many of us were imploring them to deal with VT's financial crisis.

But we were told "they can chew gum and walk at the same time" or something like that.

So do you folks still think they can "chew gum and walk at the same time"?

...
-- Posted by mark on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 9:33 pm EST

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Lets see...

1) Welfare reform... VT needs to really screen these people who are working the system... if you need it understandably so... but there is no reason many of the people can't work... and choose not to work for the sole reason that their benefits from the state would diminish. Or choose to work less hours to make sure they still recieve maximum benefits.

2) Unemployment reform : again screening needs to be done to make sure the people are making a valid attempt at finding a job. Why would people want to work when they probably make more sitting on their behinds at home doing nothing. Make them make an attempt at finding work and if not the dept. of labor should assign them a job. There are plenty of jobs available... sorry but we all can't start at $25/hr and live the dream. If your unemployed... minimum wage is better than drawing unemployment and taking the money from those of us who bust our butts working all week.

3) Section 8 is a joke... as I have a rental house and have dealt with Section 8 in the past.. the clients of Section 8 know how to work the system as well.. a former tenant of mine worked at the same place I did, and refused to work over 30 hours a week because she would take a hit in the amount of aid she recieves. Without us hard working people, section 8 wouldnt have rental properties to provide.

4) Eliminate useless VT Jobs... Such as paying a Liquor Control officer to drive around and provide "sting" operations, trying to catch stores in the act of selling to minors. This in my opinion is entrapment first of all... and secondly the state has much bigger issues they should be dealing with. A 3 hour seminar to teach about liquor... obsurd... Ive been to a seminar.. the class should take no longer than an hour.

I could make a list of 100 items.. but I will start here.
-- Posted by Chad Pecor on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 8:39 pm EST

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I IMPLORE EVERYONE TO STOP RESPONDING to the hemorrhoid. EVERYONE. Eventually, he will just go away, like all irritating hemorrhoids. He's flippant, insulting, redundant, and rarely makes a valid or factual point. He just wants attention. Please just ignore him.

DO NOT RESPOND TO HIM.
-- Posted by Ned Frost on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 7:39 pm EST

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SOTG - There is a reason I can not spell the B word - figure it out. Secondly, why should I have to involve the government in a purchase of a device that will save energy and keep our environment cleaner? An invoice from a licensed plumber should be sufficient. The reason is sustaining the viability of that government agency. Government is like a living being in that it does everything possible to not DIE. In that, laws and regulations are written that force us into using the government.

Finally, where do you get off making assumptions about my income. It is none of your business and not part of this discussion. So keep your personal shots to yourself.
-- Posted by Allen Seiple on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 5:24 pm EST

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Another clever bout of BS from SOTG offering not one iota of an idea of her own. Actually I can't understand much of her ranting and attempts at cute hillbilly speak. SOTG never met a dollar she didn't want to take from your pocket in taxes or a welfare recipient she didn't want to give it too or a private business she didn't think was stealing from the people. Gotta love those socialists with their service industry jobs that are blood suckers on working society. All one has to do is look around Vermont to see how well the legislature has done it's job. Oh...I forgot, it's the economy, Vermont is better off than Indiana or Tim-buk-to, it could be worse, I want wind turbines but not in my back yard.

I can hardly wait for next years elections. Hey did you read this mornings headline? Obama's approval rating drops below 50%.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 2:50 pm EST

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Oh, Allen.

First thing: if the only solution you have to throw at a global financial crisis is to reduce government bureaucracy, PLEASE learn how to spell "bureaucracy", m'kay?

Second, if you're not smart enough to figure how that you have to get EV involved BEFORE embarking upon a big "enery" renovation project in order to get you some o' that free socialist taxpayer money back in your pocket (proving and documenting that your efforts comply with the requirements of the program, of course) -- rebates from Big Guv'mint sure is fun when they come to YOU and not to some poor out of work slob, ain't they? -- then you're just plain out of luck. Heck, even I knew that, and I don't even write forty-three letters per year to the Rutland Herald.

You ARE right about one thing, Allen: no ARRA money went to the Crown Point bridge. Sadly, the Big Giant Federal Government's taxpayer-funded crystal ball was on the fritz a few months ago and those lazy inefficient "beauracrats" completely missed the as-yet unknown bridge damage.

Shameful!
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 1:19 pm EST

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The sad thing is there are adequate federal laws and regulations to control Yankee. The Vermont legislators and senators have designated themselves as another super regulator of a nuclear plant.. NO OTHER STATE IN AMERICA has a legislative control on a nuclear plant..They can not deal with a budget or recognize how to contain costs but they can control Yankee??All 5 candidates at the governor candidates forum have stated "They Will Close Yankee" I guess the voting booth will be busy next election if the lights are still working
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 11:47 am EST

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Mark, according to the article about the democratic governor candidates getting together the big issue for them is closing Vermont Yankee. That should take the spot light off the economy for which none of them have any answers.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 10:27 am EST

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I am sure our state legislature will come up with some sort of feel-good fringe issue to quickly delve into, lest they have to face a budget deficit.

...
-- Posted by mark on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 8:51 pm EST

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Well so far from the left wing tax-and-spenders all we've heard is "it could be worse", "others states are worse off", "what can you expect in the worst recesssion in a gadzillion years". Excuse after excuse, not a single idea from the bunch. The truth is Vermont has been in decline for thirty years, long before the latest downturn and they only thing the legislature accomplished in the last session was to raise taxes, standard practice, and pass gay marriage. By the way where's all that money and business that was going to come into the state from all those gay marriages? And if your kids have to move away after college to find decent employment that's okay too, it makes more room for the Notto's and Juliets or SOTG to move in to take their social service jobs or retire after they made their money in New York.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 6:44 pm EST

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Son of that guy - I will answer your ten questions.

1) Reduce the government beauracracy
2) Reduce government beauracracy
3) Reduce government beauracracy
4) Reduce government beauracracy
5) Reduce government beauracracy
6 - 10) Get rid of all social support programs for those that do not work.

Every asked for help from a government agency? I have. Called Efficiency Vermont after I installed a 95% efficient heating system and was told that I could get a rebate back from our government agency that is supposed to help us reduce our enery use. Guess what - not eligible because I did not involve the agency in the whole process. The unit installed was eligible for the rebate if only I had been an idiot and had not figured it out myself and had used the government to help me think . Sorry I have a brain . . . get rid of these agencies let the money stay in the hands of those that make it and we will have jobs and prosperity.

By the way. This agency is so professional that they mentioned to a customer that I referred to them their opinion about me as I wrote an editorial to the Rutland Herald called "Inefficiency Vermont" telling this story. Again, shut them all down and save yourself the $ 88 million.

And to Notta and the rest of you that will say that I am angry and not smart enough to work the system - don't bother. I am not angry, I just do not see government helping us at all any more and the only solution is to massively shrink it. However, our Fed stimulus money did not go to fix the bridge over Champlain it went to support all of the bloated state governments across America.

IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE.
-- Posted by Allen Seiple on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 5:30 pm EST

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Wurdy, perhaps we need to expand upon your question and ask how much personal responsibility should the legislators/executives of government in Vermont take for the failure and/or poor performance of their state?
-- Posted by For the Fair Tax on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 11:34 am EST

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Vermont is NOT the only state facing a budget shortfall. Perhaps this information will foster a more fact based discussion:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=711

http://www.sec.state.vt.us/corps/dobiz/stats.htm

If I remember correctly, REDC recently announced a new company will start up in the Industrial Park and the exiting governor of Vermont, while on his Asian junket, announced Korean investment in a business to be located in Orleans County.

Have any of the discussants here considered this question: how much personal responsibility should the owners/managers of business in Vermont and Rutland City take for the failure and/or poor performance of their enterprise?
-- Posted by Wurdy Smithy on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 10:37 am EST

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Hey Son, are we to take it from your posts that you are completely satisfied with the performance of your state and federal governments?
-- Posted by For the Fair Tax on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 9:36 am EST

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Oh, Jim Eckhardt... I haven't forgotten about you, big guy.

You're still desperately avoiding answering my question: What should the "yahoos" in the state legislature have done that would have improved the current state of the economy?

For a person who comes on these forums yammering his head off about how us anonymous posters offer criticism but no solutions, you seem to be surprisingly solution- and idea-free, yourself.

So, Jim Eckhardt, President of the Rutland County Pro-Business Forum and owner of a local business that apparently permits him plenty of time to hang out on his computer... what should those nasty ol' Dems and Progs have done this year that would have headed off this financial crisis?

Here, I'll help you. You just fill in the blanks:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

(If you need more space for all of your wonderful ideas, just add more numbers.)

The residents of the great state of Vermont anxiously await your pearls of wisdom.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 9:02 am EST

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Name Change... I'm not really sure how you thought your double-post would help your cause. You've merely reinforced that, in Indiana, the only way to bolster the state's accounts is to take Obama's money, increase the sales tax (which Douglas won't do), and take on full responbility for school funding by a shift away from local prpoerty taxes to a giant "tuition reserve" line item (again, pretty much exactly the opposite of Douglas's proposed property tax increases from early this year).

Oh, and don't forget gambling. Indiana's planning on gambling showing the single biggest percentage gain in revenue over the next two years of any major revenue source.

Wow. What a majestic path to financial success Indiana has blazed for the rest of us. (Even those of us who can't really read budget summary worksheets.)
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 8:56 am EST

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Ex-V: I had the years wrong, which actually makes Monty's argument that Indiana is a shining economic star even WEAKER. According to the report, the stimulus provided:

"... almost a billion dollars for Indiana's budget in fiscal 2009, and will provide $1.3 billion more in the current biennium."

Scroll down almost halfway through the article. You'll find it.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 8:43 am EST

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Ben: how is "government" "killing the family farms"?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 8:37 am EST

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For years Vermont has discouraged business in an effort to keep the state "Vermontish". The only jobs that have been created are low paying, part time retail, and seasonal tourist oriented jobs. Now with a failing national economy, our own #5 highest taxes, and a process that makes building business impossible I can unfortunately say that I have been right all of these years. Now we are also losing our most valuble resource for our future, Our young people. I have 2 in college now and both have no plans of living in Vermont after college. Lower taxes, encourage small business and find that there will actually be MORE revenue and maybe our kids will want to stay, because it's still a very beautiful place to live.
-- Posted by Jules Peteani on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 6:37 am EST

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To answer your question, the state of Indiana is very much a success story in this economy. But, they did it by cutting taxes and curbing spending, something we know the VT legislature can't do.

The state of Indiana sold the Indiana Tollway to a French company in desperation for $$$. What part of Vermont do you suggest we sell? I here the Chinese are looking for a piece of the action. Oh, that's right they already own the USA.
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 3:33 am EST

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3)Send delegations to out-of-state companies looking to expand. I recall an NPR story this past spring where Michigan and Kentucky were battling it out to lure a lithium battery manufacturer to their state. Where was Vermont? Where ever is Vermont?

-- Posted by Dave Holleran on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 11:27 am EST
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The State of Vermont is not at all a business friendly state, yet they have a huge shortfall in employment tax and sales tax. It's pretty simple really. But the don't get it! We all have to remember this in the next election.
There is a proposed shopping center (it's NOT a strip mall that some think it is) to be built in a town in Rutland County and the developer has faced opposition from the State and the transplants at every turn. I wonder when he is going to decide to pick up and go to another state and invest in their economy. Why on earth would that state want 160 new jobs and additional tax revenue??? Why that's just crazy!!! lol
-- Posted by Ann Marie None on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 7:40 pm EST

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What should they done in those "critical months", instead, that would have reversed the state's economic tide?

-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:57 pm EST

Balance the budget? If they took a hard look at government spending, they could have made some serious budget cuts. They could save millions if they stopped wasting money.
-- Posted by Ann Marie None on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 7:26 pm EST

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Corrected

Hey Notta, I mean Son of That Guy


Did you take the time to read this part in your link?

"As a result of the 2008 tax reform, by fiscal 2011 the state will take on full responsibility for the school general fund, the county welfare funds, and several smaller funds, that were formerly funded with property taxes. These new expenditures will be partially funded by the added sales tax revenue, and partially by diverting property tax relief expenditures to this new use. Property tax relief disappears from the state budget by 2011. In the mid 2000s it was the second largest slice of the budget pie. The money still provides property tax relief, because these new additions to the state budget used to be paid for with local property taxes."

Seems the chart shows the START of the YEAR Balance to be $1.41 Billion and that is a "B".

The Deficit that you refer to is the Revenue minus the Appropriations, Now ADD the ARRA of 992 Million and the Total Adjustments of 399 million and you will get the $1.4 BILLION SURPLUS that they will be starting Next Year with.

Please learn to read a P&L
-- Posted by Name Change on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 5:50 pm EST

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Hey Notta, I mean Son of That Guy


Did you take the time to read this part in your link?

"As a result of the 2008 tax reform, by fiscal 2011 the state will take on full responsibility for the school general fund, the county welfare funds, and several smaller funds, that were formerly funded with property taxes. These new expenditures will be partially funded by the added sales tax revenue, and partially by diverting property tax relief expenditures to this new use. Property tax relief disappears from the state budget by 2011. In the mid 2000s it was the second largest slice of the budget pie. The money still provides property tax relief, because these new additions to the state budget used to be paid for with local property taxes."

Seems the chart shows the START of the YEAR Balance to be $1.41 Billion and that is a "B".

The Deficit that you refer to is the Revenue minus the Appropriations, now ADD the $1.4 Billion that was the START OF THE YEAR BALANCE. ADD the ARRA of 992 Million and the Total Adjustments of 399 million and you will get the $1.4 BILLION that they will be starting Next Year with.

Please learn to read a P&L
-- Posted by Name Change on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 5:45 pm EST

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Hmmmm...going to the link SOTG provided I cannot find where Indiana is supplementing their 2010 and 2011 budgets with stimulus money. Do we even know if there will be stimulus money in those two years or did I miss where Obama made the stimulus package a perpetual deal?
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 4:51 pm EST

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"because of vermont restrictive laws"
"Small businesses in Vermont are going to continue to close at an alarming rate and will force more people on unemployment. The businesses and workers that are left cannot support this state without deep budget cuts.
What is especially frustrating is the State is not welcoming to new business and is not very friendly to the businesses that are remaining."
THATS CORRECT FOLKS, government sold off the precicion valley, is killing the family farms, Ben & Jerry's, Bed & Breakfast's and tourism from skiing and hiking will NEVER bring this state back. You better do everything in your power to bring business to this state even if you have to sacrifice a couple of those million dollar views. Cause they ain't unique to Vermont. Taxes on fancy homes or reconverted barns will never pay or employ what an orchard,farm, sugar lot, production facility or some other commodity producing business would have in the long run. Come on lets put our heads and arms together. Ben & Jerry built out of an old broken down gas station. Lets do it!!!
-- Posted by Ben Dover on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 4:11 pm EST

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Oh, Jim, you're such a sucker. So easy to play. No wonder your political opponents run rings around you and your pro-business organization.

(They really ought to consider a new leader -- not one who regularly gets smacked down in the online forums for the local newspaper. Someone with a bit more... gravitas. I'm just sayin'.)

Anyway... of COURSE I can produce proof of my words.

http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/localgov/Topics/Essays/State_Budget.htm

Still no proof from Jim Eckhardt, though, after claiming that (among many other things) the recent CVPS requested rate increase should be blamed on the legislature and their renewable energy bill.

Oh, that's right... CVPS themselves already said the bill had nothing to do with the rate increase request.

Ouch. THAT'S gotta sting in the shower, eh, Jim?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 4:02 pm EST

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Soatg. Can you provide a link that gave you the information on Indiana? I just don't beleive your rants anymore. Proof Please.
Note to all don't except Soatg at face value.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:46 pm EST

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There he goes yet again: No comprehending what he reads. You must have been fun for the teachers.

Now look at the first line of my last post. "I stick by every post you have listed there".

Then you go off and say:
"In other words, "Please don't pay any attention to what I've repeatedly written in the past and let's just pretend I'm just broaching this subject for the first time today."

DUH
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:43 pm EST

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Monty... uh, I hate to get off on the wrong foot with you, but Indiana is facing a 1.3 billion dollar state budget deficit. That's "billion" with a "b".

Oh, and they're supplementing their 2010 and 2011 budgets with 2.3 BILLION dollars of that nasty ol' Obama stimulus spending. AND the sales tax is going up. AND they've gutted nearly all forms of tax relief.

But other than that, yeah, they're a regular economic success story.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:40 pm EST

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"I stated "Where in this post does it say", not where in anything I have ever typed does it say."

In other words, "Please don't pay any attention to what I've repeatedly written in the past and let's just pretend I'm just broaching this subject for the first time today."

Got it. Check. Thanks for playing. Looking forward to your next post. 'Cause I'm a fan of creative writing.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:32 pm EST

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Did someone slip something into SOTG's coffee this morning? You are on a mission!

To answer your question, the state of Indiana is very much a success story in this economy. But, they did it by cutting taxes and curbing spending, something we know the VT legislature can't do.

I think even you can agree that the economic dissent started with the bust of the housing boom. The bubble burst because numerous people defaulted on their mortgage payments. Since there were securities at were mortgage backed, that just started the tail-spin. So, the economic crisis can be laid at the feet of anyone who didn't back the attempted move to place stricter regulation on Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac (Barney Frank and Chris Dodd) and those who pushed for mortgage loans to be given to people who didn't fit into a specific economic criteria (Democrats in general). Have a nice day!
-- Posted by Monty Fox on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:27 pm EST

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Son of a That Guy,
I stick by every past post you have listed there. That does not mean I am against renewable energy. I am just for common sense. I have also come to the conclusion that you can't comprehend what you read. I stated "Where in this post does it say", not where in anything I have ever typed does it say. Unlike you I don't care if everything I posted is out there. You say I Bob and Weave while you hide behind a fake name hypocrocy at its best. I have also never been against the UI Fund. I am against a huge increase in the UI Fund all funded by business. You see what you want and you offer nothing.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:21 pm EST

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Mark,

Are you talking about Vermont's economy, or the larger national economy of which Vermont is but a small part?

Is there an out-of-the-box state-level success story in America right now that I'm not aware of? And aren't the so-called "defenders of a failed economy" those free-market deregulatory champions on the right?

Or are you willing to tag those left to clean up the mess as the party at fault? (OK, that question's a gimme.)
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 2:00 pm EST

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Dave,

Let's not change the subject: YOU said that the "legislature wasted critical months advancing their gay marriage/feel-good agenda they should have been trying to fix and grow the Vermont economy".

What should they done in those "critical months", instead, that would have reversed the state's economic tide?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:57 pm EST

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Uh-oh... Jim's gone into bob-and-weave mode again.

You can run but you can't hide, Jim... haven't you figured out yet that everything you write on these forums stays floating out in cyberspace forever?

Some previous Jim Eckhardt Greatest Hits on the subject of renewable energy:

"Wind and solar will not work on a grand scale."
"Either way the taxpayers of Vermont will pay and pay dearly for these experiments."
"I don't think wind will work in Vermont."
"No one wants wind in their backyard but the Legislature is promoting it anyway."
"Windmills in Vermont is a bad idea."

(By the way, I'm also delighted to hear that you're no longer antagonistic toward the UI fund and the state's social safety network. Maybe you haven't had enough coffee yet today...)

But back to the topic Jim's so desperately trying to change: does your bait-and-switch tactic mean that you really DON'T know what the legislature should have done to affect the current situation?

C'mon, Jimmy. We're all listening. Tell us now. Don't you have anything to offer?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:54 pm EST

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SoTG,

So in your world, we should just hold onto a bloated state government. No, we should not. It never should have grown so large which by the way was done by the state government itself.

Vermont should also look into converting employee state pensions into personel 401k accounts. The state can then offer a match in years when we can really afford one.
-- Posted by Dave Holleran on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:27 pm EST

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Okay Son of a That Guy, I knew it was to good to be true. You just can't have a rational conversation without going into a personal attack and rant. Must be a slow day at the court house. Where in this post does it say renewable energy is bad and VY is good? Where does it say that social programs are bad and UI is bad? Good grief when you run out of crap you just go off.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:27 pm EST

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I don't understand the comment below (Son of That Guy). Isn't the onus on the defenders of a failed economy, rather than the other way around? I just don't understand.
..
-- Posted by mark on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 1:24 pm EST

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OK, let's try again: anything concrete to add, Jim? Other than generic platitudes about "efficiencies" and "accountability" and items on the perennial Jim Eckhardt Wish List that have little to no impact on CURRENT events (future potential changes to the UI fund mechanism, PRIVATE sector energy rate requests that haven't happened yet, and the like)?

I'm quite serious, Jim. As the president of the RCPBC, I'm a still surprised that you have no real meat on the bones of your arguments. You've got your standard talking points, for sure: VY good, renewable energy bad, social programs bad, UI bad. Great.

Be specific: tell us what the "yahoos in the legislature" should have done over, say, the past twelve months that would have improved Vermont's economic situation -- specifically, the size of the budget deficit -- as of mid-November, 2009.

Or is "fire state employees, kick people off UI and give VY whatever they want" all you've got? I'm beginning to suspect that it is.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 12:45 pm EST

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Dave:

OK... now we've got hundreds if not thousands of state employees all laid off at once, further depleting the UI fund. And the cut in state taxes mean evens less revenue streaming into the state's coffers right now.

So now, in this alternate scenario, we've got a BIGGER deficit and HIGHER unemployment as of November 19, 2009.

Now what?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 12:35 pm EST

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SOTG,
They should have concentrated on effiecencies in Government. They should have not raised our electric rates during a recession. They should have been working on how to get out of this Unemployment Insurance mess so that more companies will not go out of business. They should work on making our social programs more accountable. Instead, here's how our State Government during a recession saves the citizens money. They decide that the citizens will now only need one sticker on the license plate of each car instead of two. Just put it on the back plate. But they send you two stickers anyway (one had void on it) and they send a stuffer in the envelope that explains the change. Even in your thinking that cannot be effiecent. They should have left it alone if it was not going to save money. Where is the common sense? If we are indeed in debt by 130 million where will the money come from? They need to look at each program hard and make them all accountable.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 11:33 am EST

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what should the "yahoos" in the legislature have done that would have improved the CURRENT state of the economy?

Here are a few for you.

1)Create enterprise zones around the state where businesses get tax breaks and the sales tax is cut in half.

2)Cut the number of state employees. Reduce income taxes.

3)Send delegations to out-of-state companies looking to expand. I recall an NPR story this past spring where Michigan and Kentucky were battling it out to lure a lithium battery manufacturer to their state. Where was Vermont? Where ever is Vermont?
-- Posted by Dave Holleran on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 11:27 am EST

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If the legislators that are now in office don't have answers or know what to do then they shouldn't be there...period. The purpose of the job is not to stroke egos of people that are running the state into the ground. As Shumlin himself said according to this article, the 88 million figure does not include 61 million in additional estimated costs. So he's saying the real shortfall is 149 million, not 88, and then they go on to excuse this by saying we're not as bad off as other states. That's at bad as when they told us we didn't have as big of a recession in Vermont because Vermont never enjoyed any of the last boom because of vermont restrictive laws. That's saying it's better that you're poor so you don't now what you're missing.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 10:58 am EST

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If we are in need of cutting more jobs, we need to start at the top! We have "to many Chiefs and not enough Indians"!
-- Posted by advocate at heart on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 5:27 am EST

You hit the nail right on the head, in my opinion, with your point. I work for a company that gets its funding through the state, they took away my vacation time and shoved me off to a different pay roll company to "save costs" but had no problems giving all their higher ups raises this year. While I am happy to have my job and am glad to take a cut to help out, the fact these clowns could have taken a cut too and wouldn't, just goes to show you how greedy people are, in positions they have no right to be in

But its nice to see someone make an effective point that doesn't involve a 10 minute rant, or name calling.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 10:16 am EST

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OK, Jimbo, turnabout's fair play: what should the "yahoos" in the legislature have done that would have improved the CURRENT state of the economy?

Please list your solutions for us.
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 10:08 am EST

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Let's see last year it was $122 million and then the stimulus came and bailed them out. They have had a Full year to do something. When they cut some jobs the whining was all over the media. How about the lost jobs in Addison County from the closing of the businesses, who is whining for them?

Just do it. Forget the the Token Moves of striking at the taxpayers to try and convince them that govt operates on such a tight budget, by closing Rest Areas, Libraries etc. Contract the highway work out, pay closer attention to the Bids. Get rid of this nonesense about building Temp Bridges that are far better than ones being replaced. In some cases Temp Bridges are necessary but an example of a real over kill and a big cost to the taxpayers was the bridge on the Goshen Ripton rd near the Silver Towers. IT was a culvert to start with and the Temp bridge was better than most bridges on Rt 7 and the bridge built belongs on an Interstate hwy and not a back rd. Then they tore the temp bridge down. What a waste.

Get rid of the many extra agencies that have justifed their existence through B.S. Cut the dang tree and forget about getting a hoarde of Enviromentalist and Foresters out there to act like their is this huge scientific study that needs to be done first. What a crock and a total waste.

We have regulated ourselves into the deficit and will continue to do so until this nonesense stops.

How were all the Interstates, Bridges and highways built, before Vermont had a sales tax and now we have a 6% sales tax and the only way repairs and upkeep can get done is if they raise taxes? Says who? Seems there is some real poor management on the payroll.
How about closing down 42 of the 66 Supervisory Unions in the state, that would save close to $88 million in itself. We only need 1 per country and they really don't do anything for the size of the staff that they have. RNESU has what 11 people working in a their office? Otter Valley has 2 Principles and the S.U. over looks only ONE high School and 5 Middle Schools. WOW! Maybe they should go to NYC and see what one S.U. has to oversee. We are inefficient in a our methods and it is extremely costly for the taxpayer to keep supporting the insanity in Montpelier.
-- Posted by Name Change on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 7:45 am EST

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If we are in need of cutting more jobs, we need to start at the top! We have "to many Chiefs and not enough Indians"!
-- Posted by advocate at heart on Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 5:27 am EST

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I nominate this for Most Unsurprising Headline of the Year.
..
-- Posted by mark on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 10:31 pm EST

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Faced with some of the highest taxes and most restrictive development laws in the nation there is very little the legislature can do to grow the economy. Unless real changes are made the only thing they can do, other than deficit spend, is reduce spending by making cuts in social services, road repairs or reducing state employees. My guess is the first thing they would do is cut road maintanence so get ready for some terrible roads and shortage of salt this winter. My suggestion would be to legalize marijuana as the state already ranks number 1 in illegal useage. The could tax the heck out of it but they have to hurry before other states beat them to the punch.

Of course the legislatures real answer will be to do the only thing they know how, raise taxes.
-- Posted by ex-vermonter None on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 5:41 pm EST

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Anyone watch the WCAX news at 5:30 tonight?
shumlin was on again lying about who created the fical crisis in Vermont over the last 8 years .
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 5:40 pm EST

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Better Days are ahead fellow Vermonters ! peter shumlin has announced he will run for governor.. I listened to his announcemet speech.. It was enough to make you puke
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 4:24 pm EST

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Hey Son of a That Guy
Its about priorities not out of State special interests. The priority should be the economy and nothing else. We are in some serious trouble in this State. I know that's hard to see through those rose colored glasses you wear but it's true. Its much worse then the masses know.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 4:00 pm EST

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"And don't forget while the legislature wasted critical months advancing their gay marriage/feel-good agenda they should have been trying to fix and grow the Vermont economy."

I've heard this numerous times from numerous folks here on RH.com, and I'm really curious: putting aside for a minute the simple fact that gay marriage did not take up anywhere near "months" of time, what exactly, Dave, should the Legislature have done to "grow" the Vermont economy in the midst of the worst global recession in seventy years?
-- Posted by Son Of That Guy on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 3:12 pm EST

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You are right Jim. Small businesses in Vermont are going to continue to close at an alarming rate and will force more people on unemployment. The businesses and workers that are left cannot support this state without deep budget cuts.
What is especially frustrating is the State is not welcoming to new business and is not very friendly to the businesses that are remaining.
-- Posted by Ann Marie None on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 10:17 am EST

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And don't forget while the legislature wasted critical months advancing their gay marriage/feel-good agenda they should have been trying to fix and grow the Vermont economy.

Vote them all out!!!
-- Posted by Dave Holleran on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 9:51 am EST

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All the bad (feel good) Legislative decisions are catching up to us. From everything I've heard next year will be even worse. Add all this budget doom and gloom in with the possible 30% increase in electric rates and it certainely spells out real TROUBLE for Vermont. Its time to vote for the people on what they say and do not on the spelling of their last name and how popular they were. If you think this is bad, think about what businesses are facing. They read this along with the energy price possible increase, the Unemployment Insurance increase (which will in some cases triple what they currently pay), Catamount Insurance increases (doomed from the start), etc.,etc. You wonder why they are moving or closing or laying off. Yes the economy is bad but the yahoos in this Legislature are making it much worse.
-- Posted by Jim Eckhardt on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 8:33 am EST

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Well isn't that a fine kettle of fish. Now if that were most of us we would start thinking about what kind of reductions we would have to make in our spending habits. Maybe not as much money spent on entertainment, or eating out. Have to quit smoking, reduce our beer consumption etc.

I suspect that for our fine legislature, that idea is the last thing that they will consider. First they'll go to Uncle Sam with their hands out. I'm sure that Pat, Bernie and Peter's loyal support for ms. pelosi and mr. reid is worth something. Then they'll look around and see who's pocket they can gently place their sticky hands. It's kind of ironic that yesterday we had two arrested for purse snatchers in Rutland and here we are being warned that Montpelier may be getting ready to do the same.

They will find some mean, greedy business that is still making a profit in Vermont and accuse them of not paying their" fair" share. Of course it may be tough to find anyone still making a profit here.

At the same time the unions will be standing at the window demanding salary increases for it's members. All of the social agencies will be demanding more money for their clients. After all as long as their are still Vermonters working and recieving a paycheck it is their responsibility to hand over their pay to those who don't work and in many cases won't work. If the state can't give their clients more money these productive citizens may just leave the state and move somewhere else or OMG they may take a job.

The first thing the legislature should do is all volunteer to work for free. After all, they all claim to be public servants and heaven knows if you get paid based on the quality of your work they would owe Vermont taxpayers a lot.
-- Posted by northstar62 on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 7:29 am EST

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I bet these political hacks would liket to have the surplus they blew over the past several years. Instead of putting the surplus in a rainey day fund they blew it on pet projects, spending like drunken sailors. My message to them is don't you dare raise taxes to cover your mistakes. We are sick of paying high taxes because you can't manage the business of the state.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 7:21 am EST

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well fellow citizens of Vermont I wonder if this is a surprise to shumlin and smith?? They state we are not as bad as some other states...
BIG DISCOVERY ! !
NOW WHAT??HUGE tax increases??only for the rich??the new rich are those with a job..
-- Posted by bruce meyer on Wed, Nov 18, 2009, 7:00 am EST

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