RutlandHerald.com - We Are Vermont

After crash kills fetuses, a legal quandary



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By Peter Hirschfeld VERMONT PRESS BUREAU - Published: February 8, 2010

MONTPELIER – In the early-morning hours of Jan. 7, a violent car crash on Route 15 in Lamoille County forever changed the course of Sarah Cardinal's life.

Cardinal, 26, is still recovering from the broken bones and internal injuries that nearly took her life. But the death of the twin fetuses she was carrying, Cardinal said from a Fletcher Allen rehabilitation facility Wednesday, have inflicted by far the most pain. The Johnson woman was eight months pregnant.

"These were our first babies," Cardinal says. "We'd been trying for a long time."

Cardinal says her grief turned to bewilderment when she realized that, as far the state was concerned, no one died in the two-car accident. The crash remains under investigation, and no charges have been filed. But if driver negligence warrants criminal charges, Cardinal says, she wants the young man responsible to be held accountable for the death of her twins. As such, she's become the newest supporter of proposed legislation that would increase potential prison sentences for people convicted of the negligent or intentional killing of an unborn fetus.

"They could have been born the next day," she says. "These were human beings. These were my babies. And it blows my mind that the laws don't recognize them."

Three bills circulating in the Vermont Statehouse attempt, by various means, to address the issue of fetal homicide, a crime for which 35 states already have some form of legislation. Patricia Blair, a Pownal woman who lost her twin fetuses in a car crash last summer, has become the bills' most passionate advocate.

"I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle for a woman's right to have her child," Blair says. "It seems like common sense. But it's been incredibly frustrating at times."

Blair's 6-month-old fetuses died as a result of injuries she suffered in a Route 7 crash. The young woman allegedly responsible for crash – Kelly Cook, also of Pownal – has since been charged with driving under the influence of drugs and gross negligence with injury resulting.

Blair wants her to face criminal charges for the death of her "babies" as well.

"If I'm driving to the hospital to give birth, and someone crashes into me and kills my twins, then nobody died. If it's 24 hours later and I'm on my way back home, it's a double fatality," Blair says. She's spent at least two days a week at the Statehouse since the session began, staying overnight in Montpelier in the cheapest hotel she can find. "Those are the same children. They didn't go through some miraculous process where they became human."

It's a vexing issue that has won Blair plenty of sympathy but, so far at least, no legislative action. Sen. Dick Sears, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said Wednesday that chamber leadership will let him, and him alone, decide whether to hold committee hearings on the issue.

"I intend to make a decision sometime either this week or early next week," Sears said. "I want to take my time, and when I do decide, I will share with everyone my reasons for that decision."

Sears co-sponsored one of the bills that looks to redress Blair and Cardinal's grievances. His bill would create heightened penalties for existing crimes when they're perpetrated against pregnant women. Sears likens his bill to hate-crime legislation that carves out a protected class for special consideration.

Blair says she appreciates Sears' efforts, but says they don't go far enough. She prefers competing legislation in both the House and Senate that would create a new statute focusing specifically on the death of a fetus.

"That's what I'm looking for, for someone to recognize that someone died here, that a human life was lost," Blair said. "It wasn't me, the pregnant woman, that suffered most. It was the babies."

Women's rights groups, including the Vermont-ACLU and Planned Parenthood, have expressed opposition to all three bills. The concept of "fetal personhood," they say, would establish a precedent that could ultimately jeopardize abortion rights.

"It sounds like what people want to do is make a statement that a fetus has at least some of the rights that a born person has," Allen Gilbert, executive director of the Vermont-ACLU, said last month. "We think that's a very slippery slope."

Blair said she thinks the abortion debate is being used as an excuse to prevent the legislation from gaining traction. Blair, 38, said that as a pro-choice woman, she has no interest in repealing a woman's right to choose. Her bill, she said, actually improves women's rights.

"I think women should be able to choose to have their children," she said. "Someone took that choice away from me. What about my choice?"

Rep. Rachel Weston, a Burlington Democrat, says she worries less about the bills' implications on abortion rights than their potential to undermine the civil rights of pregnant women. She points to documented cases in other states where, citing fetal-protection laws, doctors or state officials forced pregnant women into unwanted treatments, ostensibly to protect the fetus they were carrying.

"All these bills bring into question at what point does a woman stop having full rights as a citizen to determine medical choices," Weston says.

Weston says she supports efforts to improve the safety of pregnant women. But enacting the proposed legislation, she says, will have the opposite effect.

"Whenever we're talking about creating a special separate status for a fetus, when we do that we inadvertently take away some of the rights of the woman," Weston said. "The question is – does pregnancy make a woman less of a citizen or mean she should have less rights?"

Though Blair and Cardinal's incidents involved car accidents, Sears says the issue is also about domestic violence. Pregnant women, he said, are statistically more likely to suffer domestic abuse, often as a result of their pregnancy.

Blair says an abusive husband or boyfriend can beat his late-term partner until the fetus dies and face only assault charges. The lack of a fetal homicide bill, she said, jeopardizes not only fetuses but the mothers carrying them.

"I hope we can all say there's something wrong when a man can beat his 9-month-pregnant wife in order to kill the fetus and not be charged with something more serious than assault," Blair said. "I really hope we can say that."

In an election year especially, the issue could become a political hot potato, forcing candidates for higher office into potentially controversial social stances. For Blair and Cardinal, who spoke together on the phone recently ("we both just started crying and talking," Blair said), the issue is less about politics than it is about honoring their deceased "family members."

"I can't give my twins birthday presents. I can't give them away at their wedding," Blair said. "But I can give them this. I can give them a voice."








READER COMMENTS


I don't think fetus is a crude word. It just defines the stage of development. Planned Parenthood very much presents all needed information as they know this is not a decision a woman makes lightly. They do no show bias or try to influence that decision.
I believe that each case should be decided on its own merits and mitigating circumstances.
This will indeed be a slippery slope for child abuse cases as well as murder,and every other crime against other humans.
My heart goes to Sarah and every other women who has lost a child at whatever age.
I also have to wonder if the other driver will be able to deal with the guilt from this disaster.
-- Posted by m mattell on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 4:39 pm EST

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TBVTLP Fetus is not a crude word and has been used for years to describe a developing human embryo. The whole jist of this article as I see it is whether an unborn child has personhood status in the case of accidents. Unfortunately, there is no clear scientific or medical answer. In fact I don't think there is a clear and absolute definition of what personhood entails. So the legislature of the the state of vt has to come up with some answers as far as vt is concerned. And it will be interesting to see what they come up with given there liberal bent.
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 3:36 pm EST

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Hey Vermontis - it only took you a minute to read Frederick Hart's post? I spent at least five, my head is spinning, and I still don't get it!
_
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 3:29 pm EST

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Ironic how the liberals like to use the crude word fetus when it suits their abortion agenda, they dont want the word baby used when addressing abortion

But when they want to fluff up the perception for another thing or play word games, such as renaming professions, teachers aid=paraprofessional or clerk at radio shack= called an associate what a bunch of BS

Makes the libs feel better if they dont have to hear they are killing a baby inside of them.

Women she have to see a sonogram before the abortion before they sign all the consent forms.
All options given. Does Planned Parenthood explain exactly what the procedure does and is? Like all other medical procedures? Somehow I doubt it.
How many dentists drill your teeth without an xray? How many doctors operate without blood tests or cardiograms?

If its not a baby in a a woman's womb growing, what happens if they just ignore it? Eventually then they will find out 9 months later its a baby. BABY INFANT CHILD
-- Posted by Take Back Vermont from Progressive Libs on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 2:55 pm EST

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Why does everything in Vermont have to be so complicated? Thirty-nine other states have had laws on the books for years concerning just this situation. They have survived any legal challenges, have not infringed on abortion rights or even inconvenienced anyone (other than the drunk driver who hits a pregnant woman). It would seem to be a simple thing to read these thirty-nine laws and write essentially the same thing for Vermont.
-- Posted by Angel None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 2:51 pm EST

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There are so many factors in the case of a fetus that don't apply to anybody else but a pregnant woman. For one thing, even before Roe vs. Wade if a woman wanted to abort and had sought an abortion, she was not charged, nor would the anti-abortion people have wanted her charged; they wanted the doctor - or back-alley abortionist. Under any other circumstances involving a breathing human being, she would get serious jail time for at least aiding, but even the anti-abortion people see a difference here. Why? Imagine the African woman brutally gang-raped by gun-toting "boy soldiers" and is impregnated. Would anybody here want the psychological trauma attached to having something grow inside of you that is the product of violence against you? No amount of preaching about a life is going to change that, and even the child brought to term and born will suffer a miserable life as a result. There is a HUGE difference between a wanted pregnancy and an unwanted one, and only a woman should determine which is which. I am quite close to someone who was told in her 7th month that her baby could bring on an emergency C-section and could die in the process, taking her with it. I wouldn't want to be the person who has to tell the husband and living child that Mommy's life is less important than the unknown person inside her who might kill her and die in the process. This is way too complex and unique a situation for judges and "pro-life" people to make blanket decisions. A mother's life has value, too.

In this case, I'm for viable, wanted babies being treated as humans, but i don't want anything like a blanket precedent. Imagine the mess that would create!
-- Posted by citizen on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 2:28 pm EST

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Great post Phillip, even better than my example.

Too many variables to the current laws and to what is what isnt't considered Human Life.
-- Posted by Name Change on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 1:39 pm EST

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mark. Pick any subject or phenomena and we as humans will have to develop a nomenclature to communicate about it. And further to act on it. So discussions like this are ok as maybe our understanding of what a fetus is and what a person is will get us further along in our relationships with one another. So that we can safely reach that higher ground.
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 1:36 pm EST

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I honestly believe that a day will come in the future when people will look back at us with disbelief that we would split hairs over human life, even to the absurdity of trying to alter reality with politically correct language ('fetus' vs 'baby').

Someday, future people will look back at us like we look back at the slave-holding South. They will marvel that so many people could so easily buy into such a brutal and bloody system, even at the same time that they understand how easy it is to blindly adopt the beliefs of the status quo.
..
-- Posted by mark on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 12:46 pm EST

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Remember Everyone,

Vermont, along with other states, have fetus homicide laws.

So if you went out and assaulted a pregnant woman and it resulted in the loss of her fetus/baby. You could be found guilty.

What's the difference between this and a negligent car accident? Really?

You say you can't have it both ways......???

It's already like that. Or didn't you know?



For me it is simple.....

A wanted fetus or baby should be protected.

Abortion should only be legal in the first trimester, before the development of the child begins. Since fetus' 18-24 weeks old have survived outside of the womb. Unless there are clear signs that the mother is in trouble and abortion is the only option to save her life.


What concerns me are the people saying... "You can't have it both ways."

So are these the people against abortion? Or protecting themselves from being convicted of killing unborn children?

And if they were to negligently kill a *WANTED* fetus or baby inside someone else. They don't want to do time for it? They don't want to be responsible for it?

Since other people still have the right to abort? They should have the right to kill it too?


Could a simple, conservative mind think like this? Could they allow themselves reprieve since, in their mind, society allows a mother to abort. I should have the right to kill wanted fetus' and babies?

Are these not the people trying to fight AGAINST abortion?

Are these not the people that want to protect life?

Sorry, but you people make me sick. If you cannot understand the reasoning for people that want to abort. And cannot understand the pain, grief, and tragedy for the family that loses a wanted child. What are you fighting for? Who are you fighting for?

You CAN have it both ways. There are laws that prove that, TODAY!

Seriously, do you just want to be protected against it since others are allowed to do it? You want it to be fair? But I thought you wanted to protect wanted life? (Actually, I thought you wanted to protect ALL life. But at the very least we should protect wanted life. Don't you think?)
-- Posted by CF Reality on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:49 am EST

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Our government doesn't really have the right to determine when a life begins (therefore abortion becomes homicide) because there's no definite timeframe. Some could argue that life begins at conception, a distinct heartbeat, or a certain trimester, but at that point you're splitting hairs because the baby is still in existence for all of those milestones.

I just find it odd that its legal (and relatively socially acceptable) to intentionally kill a fetus yet when it's done on accident it turns into a tragedy...
-- Posted by Samuel Krans on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:18 am EST

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Most posters on this thread by the examples they are giving are assuming that the law is final and written in stone, but they are not. That's why we have trials in courts of law to decide innocence or guilt of the person charged.

Also the circumstances leading up to a charge have to be considered by the prosecutor. So what's wrong about the law trying to define when a fetus is a person and not a person?
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 10:17 am EST

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Note to Wayne- how many pregnant mothers have caused their unborn to be killed by getting beat up by their boyfriends?! being the victim of violence isn't the victim's fault. This is exactly why people are worried about the slippery slope of these types of fetal protection laws. Ultimately, they always end in a woman being punished by society for her being at fault for something that could/ would/ should hurt her fetus. There are cases in every state where these laws have been enacted.
Life is full of unfortunate risks. A pregnant woman and her unborn faces inherent risks just by existing- pollution, health dilemmas with the food we eat, risks of falling, car crashes, earthquakes and other natural disasters. We can verbalize how these laws are intended to persecute only those who harm a pregnant woman with intent, but history shows us differently.
-- Posted by none none on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:53 am EST

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so if life begins at conception, do we release all these young men in jail for statory rape?
cuz that 15 yr old is prolly now 16 and did have the right to say yes
and if were so petty as to worry bout someones proper grammer were missing the point
not everyone uses spell check
and noone perfect
frederick hart
-- Posted by frederick hart on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 7:18 am EST

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Philip, thats a good point. If the laws are changed so that this could be called manslaughter then yes if the preg mother drives drunk and smashes into something and kills her unborn baby but she survives then she would have to be charged. But how many preg mothers have already killed or caused the lose of there unborn children from dug abuse and or drinking or getting beatup by an abusive partner. I would bet there are a lot of them.
-- Posted by Wayne Davis on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 10:00 pm EST

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Gee Philip you think you can decide when its okay to kill your own baby now?
No different than having your toddler in the back seat DUH
Accident death resulting already on the books DUH

But of course that is only for people that want to preserve life. I know you liberals could care less
-- Posted by Take Back Vermont from Progressive Libs on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 6:39 pm EST

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Something to think about. Suppose a pregnant woman drives drunk and is involved in a crash that kill her unborn fetus but she survives. Would she be charged with manslaughter?
-- Posted by Philip Parent on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 6:11 pm EST

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35 other state would charge at least manslaughter in this case. That means a majority of our country supports the biological fact that a fetus is considered a person. Unfortunately there are a vocal minority who don't value life the way the vast majority does and to sleep better at night they tell themselves that fetus is not a person until it is born. This way they can justify late term abortions and other elective surguries which are nothing more than growth removal to these people. If a moonbat flies into a window when everyone is sleeping does it still go thud?
-- Posted by vermonster on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 4:48 pm EST

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All I can say is I hope Sarah Cardinal doesn't read these comments.

You guys are some f-ed up in the head....
-- Posted by Dave None on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 3:54 pm EST

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CF you are on to something. Here's a link:

www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman20.html
-- Posted by Shy Wreath on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 3:36 pm EST

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Cant have it both ways.

When a girl gets pregnant and goes to welfare for Reach up, what do they call that pumpkin seed in her belly?

Does she goes to the doctor and has free medicaid checkups all on taxpayer funds, how do they bill it? Pre-fetus check up? What do they use an ultrasound for, if theres nothing important in her belly, what are they looking at, what do they pay for a radiologist for?

When its time to deliver to they now have Fetus Showers for the expectant moms?

So when the state pays medicaid bills, what terms do they use to call the (baby or fetus) in her womb to justify spending taxpayer dollars?

What terms does SRS use to investigate a pregnant woman using drugs in order to investigate for neglect?

So if someone wants welfare and has to sign papers for the office of child support to hunt down the father, and repay the state for care pay towards the girl's reachup , do they call that Fetus Support? How do they get the authority to chase a guy for support ?
but when someone is driving C&N, causes and accident and then that same little life doesnt count?
What a messed up State this is, rather lawmakers that know so little and have no common sense.
-- Posted by Take Back Vermont from Progressive Libs on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 2:23 pm EST

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Dave None

YES! there is a difference, but what is the difference and should a person have to go to prison if under so many laws the fetus is considered nothing more than Medical Waste?

If it is UNBORN, then it is not considered to be ALIVE and therefore a murder or homicide can NOT take place. If we are to consider that human life starts at conception, then the whole aspect changes and then abortions will be almost eliminated.

You can not approve of Abortion Mills on the one hand and then declare murder and send a person away for years in prison on the other.

It was the Democrats under Bill Clinton who stretched the abortion rights to partial Birth. So which is it, Pro Choice or Pro Life? If it is pro choice, then the fetus can not be considered to be a human life, if any woman is allowed to have an abortion and under some laws trying to be introduced, a minor does not have to notify her parents. What kind of life are we speaking of, if a 16 year old can go and get an abortion without so much as telling her parents? and now you want to send someone to prison because this mother wanted to keep her twins?

How can you even think you can have it both ways?
-- Posted by Name Change on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 12:34 pm EST

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Exactly Gonzo..

But you are forgetting about the abortion laws.

You cannot, that I'm aware of, legally abort a baby, in Vermont, at 8 months.

Understand?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 12:32 pm EST

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Unfortunately in this case its true, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Birth is the day that is counted from for all the rest of our silly laws.
Heres a good one for you. Having consensual sex with a 16 year old is ok. Heck, you can even get married with the parents permission. But, if you have consensual sex with a 15 year, 364 day old its rape, or sex with a minor, and you are a pedophile. So, I guess unborn is not what the government officially calls a person that can be killed. If you change this law to include a fetus as an official person who can be killed, then automatically abortion becomes murder or wrongful death.
Can a worms here.
-- Posted by Dr. Gonzo on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 12:15 pm EST

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Wow, sorry about that last sentence.....
-- Posted by Dave None on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 12:12 pm EST

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There's a pretty big difference between legal abortion and an unwanted abortion performed by some person under the influence smashing into your car.

I'm not really suprised at the lack of perspective here, hopefully a woman will weigh in on the issue.

I think Kelly Cook should be charged with something relating to her essentailly killing 2 unborn children as a result of her actions.

I believe in right to chioce, however Sarah Cardinal had no say in this and in essence had her rights taken away from her by Kelly Cooks actions.
-- Posted by Dave None on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 12:11 pm EST

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First and foremost

Grammar, spelling errors etc should have NO BEARING with what a poster posts. Everyone is allowed to speak their piece, regardless if they are educated or don't have a version of Windows that spell checks as they type. If grammar and spelling errors bother you, then you all have the freedom to ignore the posts.


There will be no clear legal answer to this young ladies plight. Not until Congress on the Federal Level defines when human life starts. I don't think that will be until AFTER the Republicans take back the Congress, on account the Democratic Party approves of Trimester Abortions and partial Birth abortions.

If a mother can decide whether she would like to keep a baby or not, prior to birth and the cutting of the umbilical cord, why should any person have to serve a Prison sentence for voiding the pregnancy?

It goes back to a question I asked a few months back, "If a person hits and kills a pregnant woman on her way to an abortion, should they be tried with double vehicular homicide? If not, they why in this case?

Woman if they want to declare that the fetus is a live and considered a Human Life, they need to pressure the Federal Congress to pass a law that Human Life begins at conception or at the 12th week or whenever.

Until then, I am very sorry, Sarah, but it wasn't a baby yet, any more than an Egg is a Chicken until it hatches.

I also have a bit of difficulty understanding how they have justified an abortion to save the Mother, shouldn't it be the other way around? I thought Adult Integrity was putting your life before your children.

It is clear we need to get this debate settled once and for all and we have dragged our feet for how many decades, waiting for someone else to pick up the unpleasant task.

I say Human Life begins when a fetus can be removed and with out Hospital care, surive. If that is the 30th week, then so be it. If it is the 34th week or the 25th week, then whatever. Time to define.
-- Posted by Name Change on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 11:39 am EST

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Whit,

I agree with everything you said except for the line at which we should consider a baby a baby or a fetus a fetus.

The day it's born?

Abortion laws and rules regulate when and how you can abort. If you are 8 months pregnant. It's illegal in most, if not all, states to abort.

Babies, to me, at 8 months have a chance of survival outside the womb. Of course they will need some support to survive. So does every baby.

@ 8 months, since you cannot abort, we must assume these are wanted children. These are lives that will exist in the future. These are a loss to someone. It's tragic, it's horrible, and someone should be held accountable if someone is responsible.

Personally, I think we should look at abortion laws and regulate life accordingly. Since that is how we regulate abortion.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 11:31 am EST

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Frederick is right, that a pregnant woman riding in a car is accepting a certain degree of risk. If the person driving the other vehicle was not criminally negligent, the outcome could have still been the same.
Perhaps to satisfy the need for a law that further protects a woman from losing a child in utero, such as with a domestic violence issue, an assailant intentionally causing fetal injury could be charged with assault and attempting an abortion by a unlicensed, non-medical professional.
-- Posted by concerned citizen on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 11:02 am EST

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Vermontis, I'm with you. I'm okay with a few typos here and there (I'm guilty), but when you see some of the trainwrecks posting on these forums failing to grasp 3rd grade grammer....well it takes any credibility away from their comments when they spell "Accident" with "accedent"..I'm not the grammer police, but when there are 8 or more typos in one post I draw the line..
-- Posted by Back Nine on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 9:53 am EST

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Vermontis, I'm with you. I'm okay with a few typos here and there (I'm guilty), but when you see some of the trainwrecks posting on these forums failing to grasp 3rd grade grammer....well it takes any credibility away from their comments when they spell "Accident" with "accedent"..I'm not the grammer police, but when there are 8 or more typos in one post I draw the line..
-- Posted by Back Nine on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 9:51 am EST

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Vermontis, you've wasted more then a minute of everyone's time with your posts so why don't you stop acting like a toddler trolling a forum.
-- Posted by bob vila on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 9:27 am EST

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Hart put it crudely, but he has a couple of good points. Sometimes a day makes all the difference in law - say the day a person turns 16, 18, or 21, or is born. Trying to erase that difference leads to complications. Should someone a day less than 16 be allowed to drive, or a day less than 18 be allowed to vote, or a day less than 21 be allowed to drink? The day, while somewhat arbitrary, is necessary for legal clarity. So is the day of birth - from which each of these other days is derived. It's an obvious place to draw the line. No other day is as clearly defined, as available as the legal standard. Is it to become a defense against statutory rape that the birth date is arbitrary, that the sex partner's age should be counted from conception rather than birth?

If a woman, perhaps not even knowing she's pregnant, goes skiing, falls, and this causes her to abort, are we to charge her with manslaughter? Let's leave the law as it is. Laws will never fit life perfectly, but extend them to far to try to handle the exceptional case - however tragic that case is - and the result can be that they fit even worse, for their regular use.
-- Posted by Whit Blauvelt on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 9:13 am EST

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Another minute of my life I'll never get back spent trying to translate this post.

When will I learn to look at the posters name FIRST?
-- Posted by * Vermontis on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 7:39 am EST

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sorry a life is not a legal life till its born
its just one of lifes inherated risk
if we butcher our pig only to find she was pregnent do we deserve to be charged with anamil crulty because we just kill her litter of eight?
i think not
perhaps mom should have ridden in the back set tro further protect her fetus , do we charge her with neglence for failing to take every step nessary to protect them herself?certainly its a given if shes in the front seat and involved in and accedent they may be hurt
are we to ancess to jail the world
shes as to blame as the other driver
if they had been born theyd have been in car seats in the back seat
-- Posted by frederick hart on Mon, Feb 8, 2010, 6:39 am EST

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